Red Box Monsters: Hints of Changes to Come?

[FireLance]

I was looking through the monsters listed in the DM's book in the Essentials Red Box and noticed that some of them had differences from the pre-Essentials versions of similar monsters which might hint at changes in monster design philosophy.

For example:

1. Hobgoblin Battle Guard
Its share shield ability grants an adjacent ally a +2 bonus to AC and Reflex as an immediate interrupt, as compared to the Hobgoblin Soldier's phalanx soldier that grants itself a +2 bonus to AC while it is adjacent to an ally. This seems to me to be an anti-grind measure since the Hobgoblin Battle Guard can't increase his own AC, and two adjacent Hobgoblin Battle Guards can only increase each others' AC only once per round.

2. Orcs
Instead of warrior's surge, which restores hit points, all the orcs in the book have savage demise, an encounter ability which allows them to take a standard action as an immediate interrupt when reduced to 0 hit points. This also seems to be an anti-grind measure. In addition, it allows an orc who realizes it is going to be killed by an archer to charge at the archer and possibly kill him first, which somehow amuses me greatly.

3. Grasping Zombie
A regular zombie doesn't get much of an advantage for grabbing an opponent. A Grasping Zombie deals +5 damage against a grabbed opponent. I approve. If you want monsters to use iconic tactics, give them a good reason to use them.

4. Kobold Quickblade
In a similar vein, the Kobold Quickblade can shift one square as a minor action, three squares as a move action, and deals +2 damage for every square it shifts on its turn before it makes its attack. This is a monster that wants to literally run circles around you.

5. Oozes
Here's one for the simulationist side: the last sentence of the Ooze trait for both the Gelatinous Cube and the Green Slime reads, "The cube/slime cannot be knocked prone."

Thoughts?

 

[Shin Okada]

WotC has been making many changes to similar monsters when new MM, other supplements or new adventure is released. And they just made new monsters, and not issued updates to older ones unless that is really broken.

For example, MM1 trolls and MM2 trolls are much different. The former is very hard to kill without at-will acid or fire powers. The llatter is much easier to kill. But WotC did not issue updates for MM1 trolls.

I guess those "changes" in Red Box monsters are no different from previous ones. New monsters came. But will be no updates to the older monsters.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

2. Orcs
Instead of warrior's surge, which restores hit points, all the orcs in the book have savage demise, an encounter ability which allows them to take a standard action as an immediate interrupt when reduced to 0 hit points. This also seems to be an anti-grind measure.

It also makes Orc minions more dangerous - as opposed to warrior's surge, which was useless for minions.

 

[Nikosandros]

I guess those "changes" in Red Box monsters are no different from previous ones. New monsters came. But will be no updates to the older monsters.

You're probably right, bit I wish that WotC would clearly indicate which of the old material is deprecated. Many of the old monsters are not "up to date" with the current design philosophy and there are also feats (like the PHB2 version of expertise) that are currently useless.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

You're probably right, bit I wish that WotC would clearly indicate which of the old material is deprecated. Many of the old monsters are not "up to date" with the current design philosophy and there are also feats (like the PHB2 version of expertise) that are currently useless.

I would say that in their view none of it is depreciated. I would still use some of the older monsters but am aware that there are issues with them. To be honest with you I have never found a problem with MM1 monsters at low level. The porblems I have found is at high heroic where they reallly do not challenge an efficient party ( I cannot speak for higher levels as I have not enough experience).

 

[Nikosandros]

To be honest with you I have never found a problem with MM1 monsters at low level.

Personally, I've had several problems also at low levels, especially with soldiers, brutes and solo monsters.

 

[Mesh Hong]

1. Hobgoblin Battle Guard
Its share shield ability grants an adjacent ally a +2 bonus to AC and Reflex as an immediate interrupt, as compared to the Hobgoblin Soldier's phalanx soldier that grants itself a +2 bonus to AC while it is adjacent to an ally. This seems to me to be an anti-grind measure since the Hobgoblin Battle Guard can't increase his own AC, and two adjacent Hobgoblin Battle Guards can only increase each others' AC only once per round.

I like it, even though it is a little bit fiddly. Interestingly from the wording here it can increase the AC of any type of adjacent ally, not just other hobgoblins.

2. Orcs
Instead of warrior's surge, which restores hit points, all the orcs in the book have savage demise, an encounter ability which allows them to take a standard action as an immediate interrupt when reduced to 0 hit points. This also seems to be an anti-grind measure. In addition, it allows an orc who realizes it is going to be killed by an archer to charge at the archer and possibly kill him first, which somehow amuses me greatly.

Thats pretty amusing and gets a thumbs up from me. The interesting thing here is the Charge Action the orc can take when it is killed, it wont care about taking opportunity attacks along the way because it is already dead. So the parties weakest link could be in for a rough time!

3. Grasping Zombie
A regular zombie doesn't get much of an advantage for grabbing an opponent. A Grasping Zombie deals +5 damage against a grabbed opponent. I approve. If you want monsters to use iconic tactics, give them a good reason to use them.

I agree grabbing creatures should always be able to do something deadly or unusual when they have a target grabbed. In reality it is really hard to keep someone grabbed with all the push/pull/slide effects a group can get their hands on so grabbers need all the help they can get (dare I say keep hold of?)

4. Kobold Quickblade
In a similar vein, the Kobold Quickblade can shift one square as a minor action, three squares as a move action, and deals +2 damage for every square it shifts on its turn before it makes its attack. This is a monster that wants to literally run circles around you.

That sounds dangerous, and a little bizarre! If I read you right the kobold should pretty much always be able to gain a +8 damage bonus (6 from move action and 2 from minor action).

They are going to look demented!

5. Oozes
Here's one for the simulationist side: the last sentence of the Ooze trait for both the Gelatinous Cube and the Green Slime reads, "The cube/slime cannot be knocked prone."

Its about time.

 

[avin]

Personally, I've had several problems also at low levels, especially with soldiers, brutes and solo monsters.

Same here.

It's clear that old monsters are outdated compared to the new breed.

Wotc doesn't admit it out of fear we call it 4.5 or they wanna preserve some appearance that their product was flawless?

I dunno. I'd just say: "guys, we're gonna update monsters and that's it".

 

[Shin Okada]

I am a DM who did not felt that "grinding" issue much from the beginning of 4e. IMHO the monsters' stats were indeed just a part of that problem, if any. The entire encounter and battlefield design, and DM's way of using monsters affected much on if such a boring combat happens or not.

Anyway, not just Essential monsters, but the newer the monsters are, the better they are balanced, so that even if an encounter's design is not so good and/or the DM is not good at making things run aggressively, the combat becomes faster.

And anyway, difference between MM1 monsters and the newest monsters are very small, comparing to, say, the difference between monsters in 3.5e MM1 and monsters in 3.5e MM3 or later.

 

[FireLance]

That sounds dangerous, and a little bizarre! If I read you right the kobold should pretty much always be able to gain a +8 damage bonus (6 from move action and 2 from minor action).

There are a number of potential measures to mitigate this: the party fighter or knight could get free attacks against one or more kobolds, increasing the danger (to the kobolds) of using this tactic, the party could create difficult terrain around them, the party could daze, immobilize or trip the kobold, etc. As a house rule, I'd even limit the kobold's move action shift to just one square if it is slowed.