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Red Box: Some Constructive Criticism

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I had an outline of a well-considered post typed up and started expanding and editing it.

Then I realized it's time to eat and then exercise.

So I deleted that post. But let me say, without clarify or defending my opinions:

This new Starter Set is...

Well, let me help you out here then...

...a disappointment

To you. Someone who has played rpgs for 20 years, as your sig suggests. But you are not the targeted demo of this Red Box.

...a missed opportunity

To produce a game that could be played by itself, never wanting or requiring additional purchase. That is an opportunity that I personally would gladly have them miss so that they'll actually sell more stuff and stay in business.

...par for the WotC course

That they produce things that aren't geared for you and your 20 years of experience and knowledge of the rpg industry.

...a demonstration that WotC continues to successfully avoid influence from Hasbro to its detriment

Ironic statement, in that most people would claim WotC is almost always supposedly beholden to Hasbro's "Evil Corporation Practices!!!" that attempts to squeeze as much money out of the little guy as possible. To say that WotC isn't being influenced by Hasbro is actually going out on a limb there.

...a demonstration that WotC continues to successfully avoid learning the right lessons from its past successes and failures to its detriment

Seeing as how they are still in business and are still able to produce games (which many game companies cannot say the same), I think they've learned quite a number of the right lessons.

...probably going to do more harm than good to D&D and 4E long-term

Which has been claimed by people ever since the company bought the D&D property in the first place, which means your prognostication is one in a long line of ones that we'll discover to be a little off the mark.

...at best going to be a very moderate success in terms of bringing new and lapsed players to the game (it will probably be profitable on its own since so little was invested in it).

Probably the most accurate statement you made.
 

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They do have a fully contained, condenses, simplified D&D game. It's called Heroes of the Forgotten Lands.

Nope. You would need something else at least unless the game consists of building characters and PVP.

Everyone here seems to be under the impression that the Red Box is supposed to be the base game of Essentials. It's not. Heroes of the Forgotten Lands is the base game of Essentials. You want to play Essentials D&D... you are playing Heroes of the Forgotten Lands.

You want to know what the Red Box actually is? It's an advertisement.

That's it.

That is what makes it so awful. Nothing says "welcome to the hobby newbie" like paying $20.00 for nothing but a glorified ad pamphlet.

It is a way for the Wizards of the Coast to advertise in toy stores and department stores that they have this game called Dungeons & Dragons that you can pick up at your local book store. By putting together this Red Box, it is no longer a "book" but is now (from the sellers pov) a "board game"... one that can be on the shelves right next to the Monopoly and the Hungry Hungry Hippos at Target.

All the more reason for the buyer to be upset because they could had gotten Hungry Hungry Hippos and had a real game.


And guess what? The people who are being targeted (no pun intended) with this boxed set who will look at and ultimately decide to purchase this game while wandering the aisles in the toy department of Walmart... are the ones who most likely have never walked the one particular aisle at Barnes & Noble where dozens upon dozens of D&D books have been sitting there for nigh on 20 years.

And thus... the Red Box doesn't have to be a so-called "complete roleplaying game". Because the folks who buy it aren't LOOKING for a "complete rolepaying game". If they were, they would have already seen "complete roleplaying games" on the shelves of Borders Books since the beginning of 3E at the very least, and already made the decision to buy or not to buy it.

Correction- the box will be the introduction and first exposure to D&D for a larger audience. It will on the shelves next to other playable board games, a level 10 elite advertisement lurker waiting for unwary prey. It will be taken home and opened and the victim will discover that this really isn't D&D after all, sorry you blew your allowance. Real D&D is in these books.

The Red Box (like every other "starter game" WotC has produced) is meant for one thing only... offer up a taste of what D&D is to someone who has no clue what they are tasting. And if by some chance the person likes it, they tell the person "this is but the tip of the iceberg... the full game is in these books here, in a format that would have been way too dense for us to put in the starter set."

They don't WANT the starter game to be a "complete roleplaying game" because they don't want to give the impression that the Red Box IS IT. That that's the extent of what a "roleplaying game" is. Because from that perspective... regardless of what they could have put in the Red Box... basic, introductory roleplaying games really kinda suck. They are NOT things I want to play over and over. I sure as hell didn't just keep replaying my original OD&D Red Box over and over... I went ahead and bought the Blue Box. And then I bought the Turquoise Box. And then I realized from the promos that there was a game called AD&D that I could go pick up at a game store if I wanted... so I went looking for it and I did.

My point is that basic introductory rpgs don't have to suck. My Moldvay basic set certainly didn't suck and that was precisely the reason it made me want to get more and more.

This is the kind of forward movement that WotC is trying to inspire in their new players and why they designed these Essentials products as they did. To buy one and hopefully enjoy it enough to then buy the next one. Then the next one. Then the next one. So on and so forth.

Or backfire. In this economy if parent buys this for their kid then finds out that the $20.00 they just shelled out for a new game is just an ad for a game that costs $100.00 it might cause some of them to become a tad upset.
 
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Mirtek

Hero
One thing that disappoints is the volume and hardness of the box compared to it's content. Most of the box is empty and the power cards are not very solid.

From it's outside the box raises expectation that are being disappointed at the first look inside.

Other than that the create-your-first-character solo adventure plays nicely.

However there are unfortunately errors in the stats generated by the adventure and one of the magic item cards reads very confusing and will certainly cause a lot of errors.
 

Solvarn

First Post
Well, let me help you out here then...

...a disappointment

To you. Someone who has played rpgs for 20 years, as your sig suggests. But you are not the targeted demo of this Red Box.

...a missed opportunity

To produce a game that could be played by itself, never wanting or requiring additional purchase. That is an opportunity that I personally would gladly have them miss so that they'll actually sell more stuff and stay in business.

...par for the WotC course

That they produce things that aren't geared for you and your 20 years of experience and knowledge of the rpg industry.

...a demonstration that WotC continues to successfully avoid influence from Hasbro to its detriment

Ironic statement, in that most people would claim WotC is almost always supposedly beholden to Hasbro's "Evil Corporation Practices!!!" that attempts to squeeze as much money out of the little guy as possible. To say that WotC isn't being influenced by Hasbro is actually going out on a limb there.

...a demonstration that WotC continues to successfully avoid learning the right lessons from its past successes and failures to its detriment

Seeing as how they are still in business and are still able to produce games (which many game companies cannot say the same), I think they've learned quite a number of the right lessons.

...probably going to do more harm than good to D&D and 4E long-term

Which has been claimed by people ever since the company bought the D&D property in the first place, which means your prognostication is one in a long line of ones that we'll discover to be a little off the mark.

...at best going to be a very moderate success in terms of bringing new and lapsed players to the game (it will probably be profitable on its own since so little was invested in it).

Probably the most accurate statement you made.

Ok, I'm at work, so I don't have time to disagree with you line by line here.

I'm not in favor of unbiased WotC bashing, and I don't have an issue with them making a dollar, if they don't, they won't put stuff out anymore.

I reject the notion that anyone that disagrees that this box is a gem or the best thing WotC is capable of putting out needs to budget and demonstrate how they would put out something better. You may also want to re-evaluate your position with a little bit more objectivity. If you think this thing is a resounding success than you are flat out incorrect. The degree to which this box fails is subjective however.

This product is (or should be if it isn't) designed to be a gift for one person to learn the very basics of Dungeons and Dragons and then get some friends to play with him.

You can disagree with this point, but there is only one book to create the character and since there aren't any handouts or quick references, each person is required to go through the whole booklet to create a character. Now, I don't know about you, but if I'm person number four or five waiting for this process while I'm hanging out with my friends, than I am bored. And probably less excited to play or try this, particularly if the fantasy genre isn't my thing.

The choose your own adventure idea thing is awesome, say, for the prospective DM to go through in advance, so he can help the others make characters. But, the thing is, there is nothing to support the fledgling DM after this initial foray into the product. There is no solid reference to the characters, what they can do, or the necessary stats.

I'll say it again, and many, many others agree with me, but this product would have been a lot better if it had at least included two pages on each class, and some more choices on gear. I had my wife go through it, and she was kind of annoyed that she couldn't use a bow, or loot one from the goblins, for example.

I can understand being a fanboi for Wizards, I like some of the stuff they do. But you need to remember that Pathfinder isn't really offering the same thing they are, and that for all intents and purposes, they don't have real commercial competition to speak of. If people don't speak up when they screw up or do poorly they don't necessarily notice it sometimes.

There is a line in the sand here. On one side, you have jerks complaining about everything that WotC does and bemoaning the fact they charge for stuff to pay their designers.

On the other side of the line, you have people like me, that opened this box with higher expectations, based upon the original box that the outside design was copied from. The box did not contain everything needed for a "world of adventure". It was not properly thought out and not enough focus testing was done on this product. It is an incomplete advertisement designed to get me to spend more money.

A better designed product truly would have had everything a DM needed to run groups 1-3 effectively. That may have led them to their FLGS to excitedly buy a new book or something to level to four.

I think the idea they have is really good, and from a marketing standpoint it makes a lot of sense. I have a lot of respect for the direction they are moving. They need to not cut corners on important aspects of project planning and implementation to save a buck. I'd have paid five more dollars for a more properly tested and implemented product.
 

Emertinel

First Post
I also don't seem to understand who WotC is aiming this product for: old players who played the original D&D or new players looking to join in the D&D party, because how is the box supposed to introduce and be nostalgic at the same time? New players wouldn't know what the old Red Box looked like (that includes me) so I wasn't really captured. New players would probably see the picture on the Red Box and even might think it's stupid or old because it has, what, 1983 box art on it?

I still don't exactly understand who WotC is aiming to sell this box for.
 

To produce a game that could be played by itself, never wanting or requiring additional purchase. That is an opportunity that I personally would gladly have them miss so that they'll actually sell more stuff and stay in business.

Corporate apologists boggle my mind.

I'm not going to eat a feces sandwich just because it vaguely reminds me of a delicious sandwich I ate 20 years ago.
 


Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
I think that whether you are really anti-corporation, this product fell short of expectations.

Observation:

This product was not targeted at experienced gamers that frequent gaming forum sites (who by and large are a subset of experienced gamer called "really experienced and motivated")

So for regular posters of this community to post things like "this product fell short of expectations" is silly; simply because your expectations are not what this product was targeted to meet.

Of course it didn't meet expectations for the posters in this thread.

Unfortunately the common sense of the posters in this thread falls short of my expectations. Lets start a forum thread about that and see how far we get ;)

As to who the box is targeted at: New players primarily.
As to why the art is old: Parents who played might buy it for kids out of nostalgia.
As to why it's light on content: because it's aimed at casual play.

If you go all hardcore, it's time to buy the books.
 
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Primal

First Post
while I would have liked a more complete ruleset I see why the redbox was done as it is

to put full rules on character creation would have been a lot more of info to digest, as it is you go step by step both in character creation and rules explanation (and this is quite a feat in itself)

the original red box as has been noted had less character choices
human fighter
human cleric
human magic user
human thief
elven fighter/magic-user
halfling fighter
dwarf fighter

now each race has it's own subset of special skill, and so each class so it's not so easy to just make something understandable and easy to learn (IMO)

they must have gone for a compromise

[Nitpick] Elves, dwarves and halflings were actually races-as-classes in themselves; and halflings were more like thieves than fighters. [/Nitpick]

I think the short solo-adventure *and* full character creation rules were an ingenious decision; I always let new players play through the solo piece ("Damn you, Bargle, damn you!") and after that we created his/her first PC together.

There might have been less choices for your class, but getting to roll your stats and HPs plus equipment lists made it possible to create different kinds of PCs (even of the same class). Now every dwarf fighter is the same, and the player apparently has very little input outside choosing the character's name and appearance.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Then it should be obvious that making a fully contained, if condensed and simplified, game, is the way to go. Why is it that we became so enamoured with D&D with the Mentzer box, or B/X? It's because this was a full game, because we played and played and played, and were only left wanting for EVEN more.

The notion that a bait-and-switch product makes more bucks than a fully rounded, satisfying product is a strange notion indeed. Using the marketing they used, with the cover they chose for the box, they could sell a great number of boxes regardless of their content. But to hook the player, you need to showcase the endless replayability and possibilities offered by a role playing game. A starter product that does not include complete rules, if even limited to a few levels, has much less of a chance to achieve this.
I think I mostly agree with you, here. Perhaps the idea is to attract lapsed players, who, their love of D&D re-ignited, will then go on to just ravenously buy more stuff, regardless. While that might not be hurt by a low-quality or incomplete initial offering, I don't much see how it would have been hurt by a complete initial offering...

OK, maybe I do. If the target audience isn't just 'New to gaming' or 'Started with the Red Box as a kid,' but /also/ "and will buy stuff like crazy," then a 'wet you appetite' incomplete product might make sense. It'll put off the sort of customers who will be more discerning about what they buy, but then, they don't represent many future sales, anyway...
 

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