Red Hand of Doom: Fane Question

[Aholibamah]

Supposing my party wants to do a recon of the Fane before actually going in to do their thing; using invisibility mostly but possibly also other means (a portable hole for emergencies for example, other spells). What are some good ways of foiling this, throwing wrinkles in the paths of the pcs, that kind of thing? I don't want to just block them, in fact I want to reward their efforts but without giving the game away entirely. How do I best strike a balance here?

 

[Jin_Kataki]

I can't really help you. I am not a fan of changing a module unless there is something fundamentally wrong. I would say if the party comes up with a plan that isn't touched on in the module then it would be logical to say that in character the bad guys didn't expect it. Now if this is a completely game breaking plan that would all but ruin the entire module if they were to go unchallanged that is a different story. I have just never been a fan of the DM style of scrapping one idea in favor of another once I hear the PC's plan just so that I can combat it. Just like I wouldn't remove the ancient collousal dragon from his lair just cause the PC's were stupid enough not to rest when they knew what they might be headed in for. Sometimes your PC's are unprepared sometimes your bad guys will be too.

 

[MarkB]

Some SPOILERS...






Let them try it, and even let them get away with it if they can pull it off - but as I recall, the dragons in that module have excellent Spot and Listen checks, so the one(s) near the entrance may well notice even invisible PCs.

And as I recall, there are Erinyes in there somewhere, and they have constant-effect True Seeing.

 

[Aholibamah]

There's going to be at least 2 of the dragons present when they go. They don't feel up to actually tackling it yet until they've done a good recon. As I said I hardly want to punish them for having good ideas, I just want some idea of how things might go. The Erinyes matter is a good point--the adventure says that Azarr Kul is busy creating his gate and that they're with him, so certainly sucker punching him is highly unlikely. I'll also have them run into at least one Blackspawn Raider patrol on the way in. Even if they're invisible they'll still have to be somewhat stealthy.

 

[carborundum]

We just finished playing last week - we won, yay!

We went for the invisible recon option and were about to be 'rewarded' with the password for the gate when one of the group decided to attack the blackspawns. Still - overhearing the password seems like a mild but useful reward. We had a lot of trouble getting in after that debacle.

 

[Klaus]

Supposing my party wants to do a recon of the Fane before actually going in to do their thing; using invisibility mostly but possibly also other means (a portable hole for emergencies for example, other spells). What are some good ways of foiling this, throwing wrinkles in the paths of the pcs, that kind of thing? I don't want to just block them, in fact I want to reward their efforts but without giving the game away entirely. How do I best strike a balance here?

The dragons there have blindsense, for starters.

 

[Pbartender]

There's going to be at least 2 of the dragons present when they go.

Right, and all dragon have Blindsense 60 ft.

Blindsense (Ex) Dragons can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon.

So, once the characters come within 60 feet of either dragon, the dragon will know exactly which square each character is standing in... Of course, the characters still get the 50% miss chance from total concealment, but that hardly matters when it comes to breath weapons and area of effect spells, now does it?

Also be aware that invisibility doesn't automatically make a creature completely unseen...

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).

A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

 

[Klaus]

Right, and all dragon have Blindsense 60 ft.



So, once the characters come within 60 feet of either dragon, the dragon will know exactly which square each character is standing in... Of course, the characters still get the 50% miss chance from total concealment, but that hardly matters when it comes to breath weapons and area of effect spells, now does it?

Also be aware that invisibility doesn't automatically make a creature completely unseen...

Yeah, Invisibility pretty much gives a +20 bonus on Hide checks. The "creature holding still" example ammounts to the creature Taking 10 on Hide.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Supposing my party wants to do a recon of the Fane before actually going in to do their thing; using invisibility mostly but possibly also other means (a portable hole for emergencies for example, other spells). What are some good ways of foiling this, throwing wrinkles in the paths of the pcs, that kind of thing? I don't want to just block them, in fact I want to reward their efforts but without giving the game away entirely. How do I best strike a balance here?

Are you talking about the finale encounter, or the final chapter in its entirety?

Given how many players manage to screw themselves by rushing in, why the urge to make life difficult for the players? I have not taken a hard look at that encounter yet, but I would be surprised if there were no way for Azar Kul to deal with that eventuality.

If you are determined to have something plausible in place, just work out an invasion response plan so that everyone who needs to be is alert.

As for specifics:

[sblock]For the dungeon as a whole, getting past the blue dragon without him noticing is going to be difficult, and I would be surprised if there are no creatures with scent at any point. If your players are good enough to depopulate the dungeon without raising an alarm, let them.

As for the final encounter, the Aspect of Tiamat is pretty much the best answer to dealing with overly successful recon. That fight has been noted as being very difficult because of the one way silence effect. Having the Aspect pop up out of nowhere against a party that probably unloaded its biggest guns on Azar Kul will test them severely.
[/sblock]

 

[Aholibamah]

I'm grateful for the responses--which in part enabled me to be more clear about what I want. What I DO want is to reward my pcs (if they succeed) for their initiative and creativity. What I DON'T want is a walkthrough. What I'm trying to put together is a sense of the security of the place. What we seem to have is:

- at least one Blackspawn Raider patrol
- at least one Blackspawn squad at rest
- 1 dragon lurking near the entrance
- one dragon (the black one) resting in a lair
- several hobgoblins, most of whom are meditating or resting
- 1 bone devil in a torture chamber
- 2 bearded devils and a night hag in a kitchen
- 2 Erinyes with Azarr Kul
- 4 blue abishai with Azarr Kul
- 2 blue abishai at the foyer plus 2 undead wyverns
- 5 wyverns in the temple area
- 1 barbed devil in the treasurey

What I'm trying to do is read through all the potential responses and see how to coordinate them.