D&D 5E [+] Red Wizards of Thay

[CapnZapp]

Do you know of any decent 5E implementation of Red Wizards? I'm looking for something that resembles the power 3E gave them.

I'm mainly concerned about enemy NPCs, so a template is fine. Rules that work for player characters are also welcome, if a secondary concern.

To get the discussion started, I'll post my own quick'n'dirty effort in the next post.


Please no "you don't need rules for Red Wizards" or "OMG power creep" replies. This is a "plus thread", so please respect the premises of the thread: "having good mechanical rules for Red Wizards is a worthwhile thing to have" and "if Red Wizards weren't powerful, they wouldn't have the reputation they have". If you want to discuss or question these premises, start a new thread. Not here. This is a "plus thread".

 

[CapnZapp]

For those of you that don't know/remember, 3E Red Wizards wielded immense power and were very dangerous. Players were awed every time one showed up, and they went to great lengths in fighting one on their own terms.

Red Wizards had this reputation for two main reasons. First, the Red Wizard prestige class that gave them great benefits regarding their chosen school of specialization. In short, they got huge bonuses to their spell save DCs and also to their own saving throws.

But even more alarmingly, their tattooed foreheads enabled to practice circle magic where the apprentices gave their magic power to their leader. This notable allowed the Red Wizard circle leader to add to his or her "caster level", or in 5E terms, allowed him to cast spells as if they were higher level for "free". He could also spend the circle's energies on free metamagic, which made his spells even more dangerous.

Feel free to look up the details here:
http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/realms/red.shtml
http://www.realmshelps.net/magic/circle.shtml

Now, a direct conversion of something that already in the gonzo 3rd edition was hopelessly overpowered is not my goal.

Here are what I have come up with so far, simplifying and streamlining as much as possible while still retaining the core idea of the 3E mechanisms.

RED WIZARD TEMPLATE
Apply to any arcane spellcaster, though only Wizards (and Wizard-like monsters) gain the full benefit.

SPELL POWER: Foes save at disadvantage against spells from the Red Wizard's chosen school of specialization (if any). Example: you save with disadvantage against an Evoker Red Wizard's Fireball.
SPECIALIST DEFENSE: The Red Wizard gains magic resistance against spells of its chosen school of specialisation (if any). Example: an Evoker Red Wizard makes saves against your Fireball with advantage.
CIRCLE TATTOO: You can lead a circle of spellcasters with a circle tattoo. See below.

Circle magic: You and up to seven other spellcasters partake in a ritual that takes one hour to complete. The participant with the most levels in a single spellcasting class becomes the leader. Everyone else spends a spell slot of a spell level of their chosing (that they are normally able to cast). All these spell levels are totaled, and converted into Sorcery points on a 1:1 ratio. These sorcery points are available to the leader for 24 hours or until expended.

The circle leader can spend levels in two ways:
a) to add metamagic to his spellcasting.
b) to regain spent spell slots.
In other words, exactly as a Sorcerer would use them. Treat the circle leader as a Sorcerer with class levels equal to the circle leader's character level.

To do:
- determine exactly which metamagic effects are available
- decide whether a maximum is needed (you can't hold more sorcery points than your level)
- guesstimate how much the CR of the base monster would change because of this template

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Some ideas:
- Red Wizard of a specific school cannot cast spells from another school. They add extra half-proficiency to their spell DC and can use Arcane recovery 1 extra time per day.
- Circle magic: When within 10' of the red wizard, a character with spell slots can use its reaction to fuel a spell slot to the Red Wizard, giving him access to Metamagic effect (see Lore/Inventor Wizard from UA for an idea on how to use spell slots as metamagic currency)
- As a reaction to being hit, a Red Wizard can transfer his Concentration on a spell to another caster in circle that is not currently concentrating on a spell effect.

 

[Satyrn]

Perhaps give them the sorcerer's spell points and metamagic (all the options).

This way they can use the points to bump their spell power to their hearts content so long as they have points left.You could even create custom uses for those points, and set them to whatever power level makes sense to you.

 

[Satyrn]

I guess, really I'm just suggesting you go with what you have, but just give them some points instead of needing convert slots first..

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

If I needed Red Wizard stats ASAP, I’d probably grab Azbara Jos or Rath Modar from Hoard of the Dragon Queen. Depending on how much time and inclination I had, I might tweak them from there. For greater power, it’d be easy to give them Legendary and Lair actions.

 

[CapnZapp]

I guess, really I'm just suggesting you go with what you have, but just give them some points instead of needing convert slots first..

Ah.

But "needing to convert slots" is the entirety of circle magic - and the need/benefit of having underlings. Are you suggesting the Red Wizard should simply gain that power for free, and if so, why?

 

[CapnZapp]

If I needed Red Wizard stats ASAP, I’d probably grab Azbara Jos or Rath Modar from Hoard of the Dragon Queen. Depending on how much time and inclination I had, I might tweak them from there. For greater power, it’d be easy to give them Legendary and Lair actions.

For sure.

But I'm looking for something more modular.

Even if we don't end up with player character rules, a template still makes it easy to see what kind of power I would gain if I travelled down the path of Red Wizard...

Just saying this or that monster is a Red Wizard offers no standardization; nothing to draw conclusions from.

That said - thanks. Your suggestion is definitely "the 5e way" (if we settle for NPCs and have no PC aspirations).

 

[CapnZapp]

Note: I looked up Rath Modar, and as far as I can see, he's just an Illusionist Wizard (or the NPC approximation thereof) - there are no traces in his stats of any abilities specific or unique to Red Wizards...

Now I know you said "ASAP", but for the purposes of this thread, you can assume we "have the time and inclination" to "tweak them from there"

 

[CapnZapp]

Some ideas:
- Red Wizard of a specific school cannot cast spells from another school. They add extra half-proficiency to their spell DC and can use Arcane recovery 1 extra time per day.
- Circle magic: When within 10' of the red wizard, a character with spell slots can use its reaction to fuel a spell slot to the Red Wizard, giving him access to Metamagic effect (see Lore/Inventor Wizard from UA for an idea on how to use spell slots as metamagic currency)
- As a reaction to being hit, a Red Wizard can transfer his Concentration on a spell to another caster in circle that is not currently concentrating on a spell effect.

Hmm. Thanks, but this is not quite what I was looking for. Let me try to explain:

- In 5th ed, Wizards are balanced on the assumption they can cast spells from every school. The "forbidden school" conceps seems outdated. It doesn't provide any real balance (and to be honest, never did). And was it actually any fun? (I would say, no, it was mostly a pain in the rear to have to double-check the school of every spell you ever cast, and getting issues when a perfectly innocous spell happens to be utterly un-castable for you) Was never a fan of doubling up on an already dodgy mechanism.
- I think I prefer "disadvantage to saves" more than numerical bonuses to spell DCs, to be honest. 5th edition really doesn't do what 3rd did with numerical bonuses. Of course, we haven't even started discussing the balance of it.
- Your circle magic doesn't resemble the 3E thing. If I understand you correctly, there is no leader, no preparation time, and most importantly, it doesn't work ahead of time. The underlings must be present in the battle, and they must stay alive long enough to make a difference. That makes your proposal something fundamentally different. Thank you, but that's not giving off the look and feel I'm after. Which is: "who's the leader, and take him out straight away".
- The idea of allowing a circle leader to pass off concentration to the circle participants is a good one, if possibly too strong. But I realize that's not what you actually suggest, since your notion of a circle is so different from mine.

Best regards