Redclaws Protectors OOC

EvolutionKB

First Post
Tactics seem to be key in 4E(especially after DMing two TPKs on game day...no time for big details..but here goes...right now I am thinking that Valamir is taking the chain armor prof feat as well as pally multiclass feat. At level 2 he will take skill training in stealth. Warlocks are best multiclassing with pally, many of their attacks go off of chr.

Str13 Con14 Dex10 Int 13 Wis8 Chr18(16+2)
 

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Zurai

First Post
It occurs to me that Immeral is trained in Arcana and, furthermore, is a member of a race famed for being arcane scholars. While he's not a spellcaster himself, he's quite familiar with magical theory and (should he take the feat) he'd actually be pretty proficient with Arcane and Nature Rituals. Mirna, being raised by an elven (eladrin?) wizard and raised with encyclopedic knowledge of the history of the elves, might even be one of the people Immeral would talk to if he came across her (or she, him).

Another possible link within the party is Osric's connections with the town apothecaries/herbalists. I would imagine that Immeral could just as easily "hunt" for rare plants and healing substances as he could for beautiful pelts. It's a friend-of-a-friend association, but it's at least a link.

I can't say much about links to Penance or Valamir until I read their backstories again.



Tacticswise, since we have a dual-striker party, I'm considering working Immeral's continued advancement towards a hybrid ranged striker/controller set, with lots of status effects and movement. He really shouldn't be much of a worry for Osric to protect given the extremely mobile nature of the Ranger powers combined with Fey Step; I envision him as a sort of wild card in the battles, sniping from the edges of the battlefield, taking out key enemies, harassing enemies that break free from Osric, and imobilizing/slowing/pushing enemies that threaten Mirna, Valamir, and Penance. He'll also have good multi-target potential with all the 2 and 3 attack powers Rangers get.



On a related note, Redclaw: It occurs to me that I'm going to be going through a lot of arrows. Do we really need to keep track of them, especially considering the PHB's "you don't need to keep track of encumbrance unless you're sure you're going to go over" stance? I could easily spend the last 11 gold on arrows and have ~400 without going over into heavy burden, but that just seems silly and metagamish. The problem is that in any kind of lengthy trip out of town he's going to come real close to running out of a "reasonable" amount of arrows; that 60 may last him 10 fights or so, if I'm lucky.
 

Graf

Explorer
I think it'd be very reasonable for Phillian to have invited Immeral over to talk. At least in the back story I had written up I'd imagined that Phillian liked to 1) speak elvin and 2) talk about arcane matters.

You'd make a great dinner companion on those grounds. Or even if you wouldn't he might feel compelled to invite you over as a matter of politeness (or because he's supposed to guard the town, and Norsten would expect him to know about other elves).

I think we won't get an official opinion on Phillian elf OR eladrin until Redclaw gets the books. Personally I could see him being an eladrin (matches the educated and arcane racial fluff) and just swapping feystep for elvin precision.

*********************

I may be underestimating the amount of control a ranger can get. I've really only seen the class in terms of the pregen.

Having said that... feystep isn't really as awesome as people seem to think. You spend a move and.... you move five squares. If you follow that up with another move then it's good, but it's not the "make me safe" effect that I think people think it is.
Most monsters can charge 6. Or shift-charge 7, or move-charge 12.
I've seen at least one eladrin ranger who was in a tricky spot teleport 5 squares away, decide "OK, I'm safe now" turn around and start shooting and... get mobbed a second later when the monsters were all over them again. No more feystep, the defender is now 8 squares away and tied down with other monsters (much harder to help).
The whole group then has to try to move out of position to help the striker (who is probably already dead anyway)
I guess what I'm saying is that strikers who think they can solo and think "I don't need defenders" can sometimes open up "second fronts". As an adventuring party with one defender (and one leader) I think that we don't want to be fighting on too many fronts.
Obviously as the wizard, hypothetically I can try to lock down the front. (Use a daily to turn everything into difficult terrain and hope the ranger can work their way out of it before the monsters do).
it'd be fun to try :)

Ranged strikers who actually play as strikers, (i.e. stick 10 squares away and prioritize positioning) -may- be a different story. By prioritize positioning I mean keep the defenders between them and the monsters, sacrifice an attack action when necessary to make sure they're staying out of melee, understand that if they're hurt and within charging distance the monsters -will- come after them, etc. are different.
I -haven't- seen anyone who was really willing to play that way yet (though it's early days of course).
If I were you I'd basically always be concealed too (at least in the wilderness). Just hang out in woodland or obscured squares, shoot, shift and you can make a stealth check for free.

Just my two cents. I'm hardly the expert.
 

Graf

Explorer
EvolutionKB said:
Tactics seem to be key in 4E(especially after DMing two TPKs on game day...no time for big details..but here goes...right now I am thinking that Valamir is taking the chain armor prof feat as well as pally multiclass feat. At level 2 he will take skill training in stealth. Warlocks are best multiclassing with pally, many of their attacks go off of chr.

Str13 Con14 Dex10 Int 13 Wis8 Chr18(16+2)
Star Warlock Crusader?
Neat concept!
 

Zurai

First Post
[sblock=Ranger/ranged striker tactics discussion]
Graf said:
I may be underestimating the amount of control a ranger can get. I've really only seen the class in terms of the pregen.
There's not a ton of it - they couldn't replace a wizard by any measure of thinking - but there are quite a few powers that stun, slow, weaken, or push, all of which I consider "control" effects.
Having said that... feystep isn't really as awesome as people seem to think. You spend a move and.... you move five squares. If you follow that up with another move then it's good, but it's not the "make me safe" effect that I think people think it is.
Most monsters can charge 6. Or shift-charge 7, or move-charge 12.
I've seen at least one eladrin ranger who was in a tricky spot teleport 5 squares away, decide "OK, I'm safe now" turn around and start shooting and... get mobbed a second later when the monsters were all over them again. No more feystep, the defender is now 8 squares away and tied down with other monsters (much harder to help).
Oh, I didn't mean that Fey Step would make him immune to being attacked, or even that any of his abilities would make him immune to being attacked. It's not a "make me safe" ability at all, not unless you're being grappled (which it works great for). It's a positioning ability. It makes terrain always work against the enemies, at least from the Immeral's perspective. No, his escape abilities come from class powers, like Yield Ground and Fox's Cunning (YG automatically cancels a melee attack against him by shifting away, FC does the same thing but gives him a basic attack with a bonus to attack equal to wisdom bonus), both of which are encounter powers.

No, my point in emphasizing his mobility is that he can get to wherever he needs to be, and he can keep away from the enemies in the first place. Even his at-will gives him a free shift in addition to the attack, which means he can effectively attack and move 7 just like an Elf. Most monsters move 6 or slower, which would mean they'd have to run/charge to catch him, which means they are only using their most basic attack.

Also, at least at this point in the game, his AC is actually going to be the same as a chainmail-wearing dwarf fighter ;) 2 from leather armor + 4 from dexterity vs 6 from chainmail. His Fortitude defense will be lower, but his Will should be about the same and his Reflex will be higher. He'll have less HP, fewer and less powerful surges, and no powers that let him heal himself, so he won't be replacing Osric on the front line, but he's not as squishy as a mage.
I guess what I'm saying is that strikers who think they can solo and think "I don't need defenders" can sometimes open up "second fronts". As an adventuring party with one defender (and one leader) I think that we don't want to be fighting on too many fronts.
Oh, hell no. I'm not suicidal. His plan is to let everything run into polearm range of Osric, let him tangle them all up, and make use of the 3x3 difficult/blocking terrain that a dwarven polearm fighter represents to best advantage :p He's not some maverick gunslinger. I think you'll see what I mean when we get some battles with a goodly amount of terrain on them. I can't wait to make some brute chase Immeral across a bunch of difficult terrain only to Fey Step back to the original side and toss a Hunter's Bear Trap on it to slow it and give it a 5 damage ongoing bleed as it trudges back through the difficult terrain 1 square at a time.

That is what I mean by a Controller hybrid. If he can pull off something like that, he's stunned that creature for at least 2 turns, for all intents and purposes. He's taken a potentially dangerous foe out of the battle. Admittedly, he used a Daily to do it in the example, but that's just because he's first level. There are Encounter level powers that do similar things later on.
Ranged strikers who actually play as strikers, (i.e. stick 10 squares away and prioritize positioning) -may- be a different story. By prioritize positioning I mean keep the defenders between them and the monsters, sacrifice an attack action when necessary to make sure they're staying out of melee, understand that if they're hurt and within charging distance the monsters -will- come after them, etc. are different.
The great thing about Archer Rangers as ranged strikers is that they really don't have to sacrifice attack actions to move. An awful lot of the Ranger attack powers include movement in the attack. I'd say on the order of 25-30% - usually at least one out of every group of encounter or daily attack powers.[/sblock]
 

Graf

Explorer
Zurai said:
[sblock=Ranger/ranged striker tactics discussion]
No, his escape abilities come from class powers, like Yield Ground and Fox's Cunning (YG automatically cancels a melee attack against him by shifting away, FC does the same thing but gives him a basic attack with a bonus to attack equal to wisdom bonus), both of which are encounter powers.[/sblock]
Generally I think we're on the same page. Just wanted to make a quick response on a specific point.
[sblock=Unfortunately]Both Yield Ground and Foxes Cunning are Immediate Reaction powers. They don't "cancel" anything (I think).

In my (admittedly limited experience) a foe runs up the ranger and smacks the snot out of them. Then you get to use FC and attack/shift a square or shift a square/attack.
Then the rest of the monsters move and pound you into a bloody smear.

Even if they were Immediate interrupt powers you wouldn't necessarily "cancel" anything by shifting (unless the power says so of course). You'd get to interrupt, if you hit you could cancel(? maybe?) but if you miss and shift the monster gets to finish it's movement. And then hit you.
And then all its friends get to go.

There may be -some- sort of defensive ranger power around that stops attacks, or whatever, but FC ain't it. [/sblock]
 

Graf

Explorer
[sblock=And]FC is particularly bad for ranged fighters because they want to shift so they can use their bowshot.
So, instead of shifting someplace that's out of the way, they wind up shifting some place where they have a clear shot at the guy who just smacked them.

Which, usually means that somebody running at them from behind that guy can just plow right into.

Furthermore if there's a guy in front of you then you know that that square isn't going to be occupied. If you move away, you open up another square, right in front of you, for another monster to step into and hit you again.
Obviously there are ranges or terrain where that's not true, but I see foxes cunning as really being something you'd want as a melee striker.
You're mixing it up with their back line and a solder moves to try to block/attacks you and you can shift to set up an attack against their back line.

The extra shift has a lot of currency in that situation.
I look forward to you proving me wrong about the utility to a ranged striker. :)[/sblock]
 

Graf

Explorer
Mirna Human Wizard

[sblock=Old chitchat about power selection]The current question absorbing me (other than giving Zurai a hard time of course ;) ) is: should I take magic missile?
Definitely going with Scotching Burst and Thunderwave and I wanted the Cloud of Dagger powers... but that's a lot of AoO/zone stuff (and CoD does 2 damage, not much to write home about).
And mm is actual, honest to goodness damage at long range.

Of course that creates another problem, all three of my wizard at will powers don't have effects, which means... no point in doing orb. (at least until later levels).
Can I retrain to Orb from something else (staff?) at higher levels? With Icy Terrain, Freezing Cloud and Thunderwave I think she's still a controller...
But Ray of Frost and Cloud of Daggers aren't particularly good, any time that I'd probably want to use ray of frost it'd probably be better to move and ready thunderwave. (or just freaking run away) you're more likely to plug a bunch of people and or mess up their attack. Miss with ray of frost and they'll run you down for sure.

Even staff isn't that good, it's just a +1 to AC (the special power is keyed off of constitution, of which Mirna has not much). Of course that's better than nothing.

This, would, of course, be less of an issue if I didn't insist on having an int of 20... (my own fault really, I've seen too many clerics that can't hit).
with my new constitution I now have a plus one![/sblock]

[sblock=Mirna DMs Block]
Passive Perception 17 ✦ Passive Insight 17
Defenses 15/11/15/15
Hit points 23 Bloodied 11[/sblock]

[sblock=Mirna "Oakspine" Level 1 Human Wizard - Rough Draft]
Initiative +0; Senses Perception +7
HP 23; Bloodied 11; Healing Surge 5 (7/day)
AC 15; Fort 12, Ref 15, Will 15
Speed 6
Action Points 1
-----------------------------------------------------------------
:bmelee: a sour look (standard; at-will) ✦ non-Weapon
+0 vs Will; 0 damage and the victim may feel guilty about beating up a defenseless girl
:ranged: Magic Missile (standard; at-will) ✦ Arcane, Force, Implement
Range 10 | +4 vs Ref; 2d4+4 damage | Counts as a basic attack.
:area: Scotching Burst (standard; at-will) ✦ Arcane, Fire, Implement
Burst 1 (w/in 10 squares) | +4 vs Ref; 1d6+4 damage
:close: Thunderwave (standard; at-will) ✦ Arcane, Thunder, Implement
Close blast 3 | +4 vs Fort; Hit: all creatures in blast take 1d6+4 damage and are pushed 2 squares
:area: Icy Terrain (standard; encounter) ✦ Arcane, Cold, Implement
Burst 1 (w/in 10 squares) | +4 vs Ref; Hit: 1d6+4 damage and knocked prone. Effect: Area is difficult terrain until end of Mirna's next turn; dismiss as minor
:area: Freezing Cloud (standard; daily) ✦ Arcane, Cold, Implement
Burst 2 (w/in 10 squares) | +4 vs Ref; Hit: 1d8+4 damage and knocked prone. Miss: Half Damage. Effect: Could remains until the end of Mirna's next turn any creature that enters the cloud or start's its turn there is subject to another attack; dismiss as minor
OR​
:area: Sleep (standard; daily) ✦ Arcane, Implement Sleep
Burst 2 (w/in 20 squares) | +4 vs Will; Hit: The target is slowed (save ends). If the target fails its first saving throw against this power, the target becomes unconscious (save ends).
Miss: The target is slowed (save ends).
Rituals✦ 10 minutes
  • Animal Messenger (Nature)
  • Silence (Arcana)
  • Tenser’s Floating Disk (Arcana)
Staff of Defense (immediate interrupt; encounter) ✦ Implement[/s]Once per encounter as an immediate interrupt, you gain a bonus to defense against one attack equal to +1. You can declare the bonus after the Dungeon Master has already told you the damage total.
:ranged:Light (minor; At-will) ✦ Arcane
Range 5 | The light fills the target’s square and all squares within 4 squares of it. The light lasts for 5 minutes. Putting out the light is a free action. Only one light at a time.
:ranged:Mage Hand (minor; At-will) ✦ Arcane, Conjuration
Range 5 | [sblock=Mage Hand]You conjure a spectral, floating hand in an unoccupied square within range. The hand picks up, moves, or manipulates an adjacent object weighing 20 pounds or less and carries it up to 5 squares. If you are holding the object when you use this power, the hand can move the object into a pack, a pouch, a sheath, or a similar container and simultaneously move any one object carried or worn anywhere on your body into your hand.
As a move action, you can move the hand up to 5 squares. As a free action, you can cause the hand to drop an object it is holding, and as a minor action, you can
cause the hand to pick up or manipulate a different object.
Sustain Minor: You can sustain the hand indefinitely.
Special: You can create only one hand at a time.
[/sblock]
:ranged:Prestidigitation (minor; At-will) ✦ Arcane, Conjuration
Range 2 | [sblock=Prestidigitation]Use this cantrip to accomplish one of the effects
given below.

  • ✦ Move up to 1 pound of material.
    ✦ Create a harmless sensory effect, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, faint music, or a strong odor.
    ✦ Color, clean, or soil items in 1 cubic foot for up to 1 hour.
    ✦ Instantly light (or snuff out) a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.
    ✦ Chill, warm, or flavor up to 1 pound of nonliving material for up to 1 hour.
    ✦ Make a small mark or symbol appear on a surface for up to 1 hour.
    ✦ Produce out of nothingness a small item or image that exists until the end of your next turn.
    ✦ Make a small, hand-held item invisible until the end of your next turn.
Nothing you create with this cantrip can deal damage, serve as a weapon or a tool, or hinder another creature’s actions. This cantrip cannot duplicate the effect of any
other power.
Special: You can have as many as three prestidigitation effects active at one time.[/sblock]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Alignment Unaligned; Languages Common, Draconic, Elvin
Str 10 (+0) Dex 12 (+1) Con 13 (+1)
Int 18 (+5) Wis 14 (+2) Cha 11 (+0)

Athletics +0u, Arcana +10, Bluff +0u, Diplomacy +5, Endurance +1u, History +10, Insight +7. Intimidateu +0, Nature +10, Perception +7, Religionu +5, Stealth +6
u Untrained Skill
Gear: Staff of Defense, ratty collection of crudely bound scrolls (spellbook - made up rather poorly to look like a cookbook about fungi)
Adventurer's Kit?: Backpack, Bedroll, Flint and Steel, Belt pouch, 2 sunrods, 10 days of trail rations, 50' of hemp rope, and a Waterskin.

xgp

[sblock=Appearance]Mirna is tall and rangy. Her hands and feet seem to be just a little bit bigger than they should be. No one has ever seen her wear a dress, until recently she was invariably dressed in a pair of patched pants and a worn shirt. Recently she's started to wear a flowing shirt that look suspiciously like a robe; putting on airs the townfolk think, since she's not a proper wizard.
For a long time she kept her fine blond hair short, but she's recently started to grow it out and it now hangs down her chin when it's not tied up (which it usually is).
Her high cheekbones, slightly pointed ears and pale blue eyes hint at elvin blood, but only a hint.
She seems to attract dirt, her habits aren't necessarily messy, in fact some of her guardian's fastidiousness seems to have rubbed off on her, but, nevertheless, she's always going about with a smudged face and ink stained fingers.[/sblock]

[sblock=Build Details]
Bonus Feat: Ritual Caster
Feat: Trained Stealth
Bonus Feat: Trained Perception
Human Skill: Trained Bluffhas to be class skill... diplomacy is closest I think.

Desired Feats: Toughness (wizard needs foodtoughness badly), burning blizzard; action surge; durable; human perseverance; expanded spellbook

I do not have the orb, I just spent time typing it up and didn't want to "lose" it.
Orb of Imposition (free; encounter) ✦ Arcane, Implement [sblock=Orb]Once per encounter as a free action, you can use your orb to gain one of the following two effects.
  • You can designate one creature you have cast a wizard spell upon that has an effect that lasts until the subject succeeds on a saving throw. That creature takes a penalty to its saving throws against that effect equal to -2.
  • You can choose to extend the duration of an effect created by a wizard at-will spell (such as cloud of daggers or ray of frost) that would otherwise end at the end of your current turn. The effect instead ends at the end of your next turn.
[/sblock]

[sblock=Equipment]Adventurers Kit, Staff, 60 gp of Alchemical Reagents (arcana ritual components) and 20 gp of Rare Herbs (nature ritual components)
0gp[/sblock]
[/sblock]

[sblock=Background]Too long, needs its own post... :/
[/sblock][/sblock]
 
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Zurai

First Post
Ooops, you're right about YG and FC being Reactions rather than Interrupts. They won't cancel the attack, just get me away from the attacker to prevent a secondary attack.

You're wrong about Interrupts, though. The rules for Interrupts explicitly say that, if an Interrupt makes the action that triggered it invalid, the triggering action is lost. Using the level 6 Ranger power Weave Through the Fray (Imed Interrupt: When an enemy moves next to you, shift squares = Wis bonus) against an opponent that charges you, for example, you can just shift 2 squares perpendicular to his charge angle and his charge is invalidated, stopping him in the square before he moved adjacent to you and ending his turn (since charges always end the turn after they're resolved). Won't work against reach, but there are Interrupts later on that work against attacks rather than movement.

[sblock=Also]I don't think FC is nearly as useful for a melee character as you seem to think. The LAST thing a melee ranger wants is to be behind enemy lines. He wants to be one square behind and one square to the side of his Defender, tag-teaming some poor Brute or Soldier. Keep in mind that FC requires the enemy to have attacked you, requires you to shift 1 square, then requires you to attack the enemy that triggered FC. You can't use it to get away, as a melee attacker.

Also don't forget that the rules for charging are pretty much identical to 3.5: you have to charge to the nearest space (not nearest available space: nearest possible space. If it's blocked, no charge) and you can't charge through an ally. An archer ranger could actually block a charge through clever use of FC.[/sblock]
That said, I'm reconsidering Fox's Cunning. It was a lot better when I thought it would let me cancel an attack. Evasive Strike (2W+mod damage and 1+Wis shift either before or after the attack) is probably a better option. More damage + more movement.
 

Zurai

First Post
Magic Missile's ability to be used as a basic ranged attack won't do you any good without a Warlord around. I don't think anyone else gets the ability to grant others basic ranged attack actions, and I don't think Wizards get anything that's <something> + basic ranged attack.

So, at that point, you're comparing 1.5 higher average damage, harder to resist damage, targeting Reflex, and 10 longer range (MM) vs targeting Fortitude and a better secondary effect (RoF).

I think what'd tilt things in MM's favor for me is the longer range, rather than the extra damage. Slow is a very nice effect, but RoF's slow doesn't linger and it's short range. You want Mirna to be nowhere near the action.
 

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