Reducing bonus types

[Kerrick]

I don't feel like typing out a whole involved intro, so I'll cut straight to the point. Here is the list of bonuses I'm planning on using, along with the things they can modify. I've also got some extra notes at the bottom about applying bonuses in different situations.

Ability: Everything that it modifies now.

Armor, deflection, dodge, natural armor, shield: AC. Duh.

Circumstance: Skills, attack rolls, and saves.

Competence: Attack rolls, skill checks, caster level checks, or any other checks to which a bonus relating to level or skill ranks would normally apply, but not ability checks, damage rolls, initiative checks, or other rolls that aren't related to a character's level or skill ranks.

Craft: This is a new one I made up for my variant mastercrafting system. I wanted mastercraft (masterwork) bonuses to stack with magical enhancement bonuses so armor could be more useful, so I had to make a new bonus type. It only applies to mastercraft items.

Enhancement: Attack/damage rolls, skill checks, and ability scores. (Technically, enhancement bonuses to AC just improve the existing armor/shield bonus; otherwise magic armor/shields wouldn't stack.)

Inherent: Stats.

Insight: Attack rolls, Armor Class, Reflex saves, and skill checks.

Luck: Attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, caster level checks, etc., but not Armor Class or damage rolls.

Morale: Attack rolls and skill checks, or most other checks to which a bonus relating to level or skill ranks would normally apply.

Racial: Skills, etc. No change.

Resistance: Saves.

Size: AC, attack rolls, Stealth checks, and combat maneuver checks. (I had no problem changing the Hide modifier to Stealth on the general premise that smaller creatures are quieter, and larger ones noisier.)


The ones I got rid of: alchemical (part of resistance), haste (no real need for it, for ONE spell), sacred/profane (AC bonuses were changed to deflection, and skill bonuses to competence; these bonuses appear so seldom that there's no real point in keeping them.)

That still leaves a lot of bonuses that add to the same things; I'm considering rolling luck into circumstance (what is luck if not good or bad circumstances?) and competence into enhancement (since they do basically the same thing). This will cut the major bonuses (the ones we see often) to: armor, deflection, dodge, enhancement, natural armor, morale, shield, and size; and the minor ones (seldom applied) to: circumstance, craft, inherent, insight, racial, and resistance.

By dividing bonuses into major and minor, it would be easier to make/revise spells that grant them - you can make divine spells enhancement and bardic songs morale, for instance, meaning that spells wouldn't stack as easily (thus reducing the ridiculous amount of bonuses granted). This kind of ties into the extra notes, below.


Extra notes:

I can't claim credit for this one - I saw it on another thread in the General RPG forum and borrowed it for ideas, but I thought it might be useful here.

The poster mentioned "internal" and "external" bonuses. Internals were things like ability scores; externals were AC, attacks/damage, skills, and saves.

The premise here is that spells that grant internal bonuses last longer, but possibly take longer to cast (akin to rituals in 4E, maybe 1 round to cast) and last for 10 minutes to 1 hour/level. I also posit that internals should be harder to dispel - you'd need a greater dispel or disjunction to take care of them*. These would be armor/deflection/shield (mage armor, shield), enhancement (animal buff or skill spells), and natural armor (barkskin).

*I'm also going to change the animal buff spells to "end-of-chain" bonuses - cat's grace, for instance, adds to all Dex-related skills, Ref saves, etc., but not Dex itself. This makes things a lot easier to recalculate. Anything that actually grants bonuses to the stat would be either greater versions (ritual spells, which last for 1 hour/level) or permanent magic items.

Externals, OTOH, are generally short-term bonuses that last for, say, 1 round to 1 minute/level. This would cover things like prayer, bless, etc.; a simple dispel can remove them. These would be competence (divine favor/power), dodge (haste), insight (???), and resistance (resistance).

 

[Knight-of-Roses]

Interesting stuff.

I have not really worried about such things as it has not come up that much in my campaigns and it is certainly interesting to see all of the different types of bonus spread out.

Though I think I would have rolled "Sacred/Profane" into "Luck" for what is divine favor if not luck (and vice versa). And why not have luck apply, potentially, to everything? Not getting hit (i.e. AC) seems an important part of luck to me.

 

[Kerrick]

Though I think I would have rolled "Sacred/Profane" into "Luck" for what is divine favor if not luck (and vice versa). And why not have luck apply, potentially, to everything? Not getting hit (i.e. AC) seems an important part of luck to me.

Interesting point, combining them into luck. I kind of view a sacred/profane bonus to AC as an aura of divine energy, akin to deflection. I couldn't really see applying a luck bonus to AC, but everything else? Sure.

 

[Hawken]

How about just limiting rolls to 2 modifiers/bonuses--Intrinsic and External? And you use only the highest bonus of each type.

Intrinsic bonus: Anything innate to the character or learned/acquired; such as insight, morale, competence, etc.

External bonus: Anything outside of the character, not possessed of naturally by the character or manifested outside of the character; such as deflection, luck, armor, etc.

BAB, for example, would be: Class/level BAB + Str/Dex + morale (intrinsic) + enhancement (external), to get a total BAB modifier.

 

[Kerrick]

How about just limiting rolls to 2 modifiers/bonuses--Intrinsic and External? And you use only the highest bonus of each type.

That's similar to what was posted on the other thread - internal and external bonuses. GMTA.

Intrinsic bonus: Anything innate to the character or learned/acquired; such as insight, morale, competence, etc.

External bonus: Anything outside of the character, not possessed of naturally by the character or manifested outside of the character; such as deflection, luck, armor, etc.

BAB, for example, would be: Class/level BAB + Str/Dex + morale (intrinsic) + enhancement (external), to get a total BAB modifier.

That would work. The folks over on the PF forums are racking their brains trying to figure out how to reduce the effect of bonuses and such... this is a very elegant solution. It's certainly better than a flat limit of 3 (or even 5)buffs total. I like it.

So, to expand on this a bit:

Internal bonuses would be: Competence, dodge, insight, morale, resistance.

External bonuses would be: Craft, deflection, divine, luck.

Bonuses that don't count (i.e., stack with everything): ability, armor, circumstance, natural armor, inherent, racial, shield, size.

The reason I set aside a bunch that stack with everything else is that these are the "basic bonuses" - you can't really calculate AC, for example, without armor, shield, Dex, and natural armor (if applicable) - those things are intrinsic to every creature. Likewise, racial and size bonuses are a function of form and should always apply. It still gives us 9 bonuses that don't stack - that's more than enough to reduce the overall mess to a manageable level.

 

[Hawken]

Regarding your bonuses that don't count, I'd rather start calling them modifiers or something rather than a bonus.

Case in point: Ability score modifiers.

As illustrated in my BAB example, Str/Dex still applies, it still modifies. Its a part of the formula not a bonus to it.

Circumstance I would lump this with the external bonuses or even Luck. While not supernatural luck, a circumstance bonus is basically a luck bonus. You're either lucky enough to have fortunate circumstances at the time of the check or unlucky enough to have unfortunate circumstances.

Armor and Shield would not be bonuses, but modifiers. They modify the characters Defense or AC, whatever you want to call it. In the case of conflicting modifiers (having a large shield AND a Shield spell at the same time); use the higher modifier.

Same with Armor and Natural Armor. Use the higher modifier. Before 3E and all its bonuses, I never saw Trolls in full plate and just because 3e started whipping out every kind of bonus one could imagine, doesn't mean it has to work that way. Hill Giants in chainmail, Trolls in full plate, just seems too contrived to me and definitely kills the fantasy. It makes it feel kind of like the DM is out to get you.

To deal with monsters with natural armor and that armor not being enough, why not increase their natural armor bonus by their Con or Str modifiers? This way you still get Hill Giants in animal skins, Ogres in rags and leather, etc. Monsters still have a monstrous feel without having to armor up just to stay on par with the PCs.

I would eliminate inherent bonuses. Treat them as one-time, permanent adjustments to stats just like when characters hit 4th, 8th, etc. Those aren't tracked, no need really to track inherent ones either. Wishes and the books are the only things that come to mind providing these bonuses. Just rule that the character can benefit from the Wish only however many times you want them to. As for the books, create minor, moderate and major versions of the books; providing a +2 bonus for each. That way someone gets a minor book (Con), fine, they get a +2 bonus. Then they find a major book (Con) but instead of a +6 bonus to Con, they only get another +2 bonus until they can find the moderate book and get the third +2 bonus--either way, they only get a total of +6 from any one tyoe (ability) of book.

I read somewhere, I forgot where, about changing the stat spells so that they only provide a bonus to the skills and rolls for that ability. Like the Gauntlets of Ogre Power wouldn't actually increase Str by +2, but increase the wearer's Str modifier by +2. This makes things much easier. Stats go back to the 1E way of basically being static. If someone gets hit by a Ray of Enfeeblement, their stat bonus goes down instead of the actual stat itself. No need to recalculate when the spell hits and when it wears off, just adjust the modifiers.

Racial would be like armor, a modifier not a bonus.

Size too.

 

[Kerrick]

Regarding your bonuses that don't count, I'd rather start calling them modifiers or something rather than a bonus.

Case in point: Ability score modifiers.

Good call. That would further divorce them from actual "bonuses".

Circumstance I would lump this with the external bonuses or even Luck. While not supernatural luck, a circumstance bonus is basically a luck bonus. You're either lucky enough to have fortunate circumstances at the time of the check or unlucky enough to have unfortunate circumstances.

Circumstance can be a penalty, too, not just a bonus. I agree that it's an external factor; I was going to push for keeping it stackable with everything (via a special exception), but then I thought... why? It could just as easily override an ongoing spell effect, since circumstance bonuses seldom apply for more than a round or two anyway. I'm not sure - it could go either way, really; luck/chance is such an odd thing that it's hard to define.

Armor and Shield would not be bonuses, but modifiers. They modify the characters Defense or AC, whatever you want to call it. In the case of conflicting modifiers (having a large shield AND a Shield spell at the same time); use the higher modifier.

Hmm. "Modifier" generally means "bonus OR penalty", and armor and shields only apply a bonus. We could call the "stack with anything" bonuses inherent bonuses, as they always apply (see below for more on inherent bonuses).

Same with Armor and Natural Armor. Use the higher modifier. Before 3E and all its bonuses, I never saw Trolls in full plate and just because 3e started whipping out every kind of bonus one could imagine, doesn't mean it has to work that way. Hill Giants in chainmail, Trolls in full plate, just seems too contrived to me and definitely kills the fantasy. It makes it feel kind of like the DM is out to get you.

I've seen trolls in plate mail - Return to Castle Zagyg, back in 1E. I see your point, though, and I'm inclined to agree. BUT... it makes sense that it would be harder to pierce armor AND a tough hide, rather than just armor alone.

To deal with monsters with natural armor and that armor not being enough, why not increase their natural armor bonus by their Con or Str modifiers? This way you still get Hill Giants in animal skins, Ogres in rags and leather, etc. Monsters still have a monstrous feel without having to armor up just to stay on par with the PCs.

I use UK's system for natural armor, actually, which is based on the one in the MM (though I made some modifications):

[sblock]Normal skin (humans): 0 + 1/8 HD

Tough skin/Fur/Bone (Dire bear): 1-2 + 1/4 HD

Tough hide (dinosaur): 2-3 + 1/3 HD

Scaly skin/exoskeleton (lizardfolk): 3-4 + 1/2 HD

Carapace/plated (gorgon):5-8 + 2/3 HD

Construct (golem): size + 3/4 HD

Each creature also gets a bonus to NA based on its size: Small -1, Large +3, Huge +5, Gargantuan +8, Colossal +13, etc.[/sblock]

I would eliminate inherent bonuses. Treat them as one-time, permanent adjustments to stats just like when characters hit 4th, 8th, etc. Those aren't tracked, no need really to track inherent ones either. Wishes and the books are the only things that come to mind providing these bonuses.

Pretty much. I was going to say that I didn't really see the need for inherent bonuses myself, for much the same reason.

Just rule that the character can benefit from the Wish only however many times you want them to. As for the books, create minor, moderate and major versions of the books; providing a +2 bonus for each. That way someone gets a minor book (Con), fine, they get a +2 bonus. Then they find a major book (Con) but instead of a +6 bonus to Con, they only get another +2 bonus until they can find the moderate book and get the third +2 bonus--either way, they only get a total of +6 from any one tyoe (ability) of book.

That's not a bad idea, actually. If PCs have a higher cap (or no cap at all) for bonuses from wishes and tomes, they can simply boost their stats as they will and rely less on magic items.

I read somewhere, I forgot where, about changing the stat spells so that they only provide a bonus to the skills and rolls for that ability.

That was probably me. I saw it on the PF forums and mentioned it here.

 

[Sylrae]

This looks pretty damn good. I always thought the way haste works in 3e/35ewas kindof stupid, too. Dont have anything to add to this yet, but its worth the compliment. Haven't been around much due to university exam time. ill be back more frequently later in decemberish, depending on internet accessibility when i go home for the holidays

 

[Kerrick]

I finally sat down and wrote up the changes for modifiers. Here's what I've got.

Modifiers
A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.

Types of Modifiers
Modifiers are divided into three types: intrinsic, internal, and external. Each is explained below.

Intrinsic: These are almost always bonuses (except for ability and size); they generally derive from something inherent to the character or creature, and are always extraordinary in nature (though they can come from magical or supernatural sources like spells and magic items). Armor, craft, natural armor, racial, resistance, and shield bonuses, and ability and size modifiers, are inherent. Intrinsic modifiers stack with each other (as long as they're different types) and internal and external modifiers.

Internal: Internal modifiers are those that generally apply because of the character's or creature's innate abilities, or the improvement thereof. They are generally permanent, but can be bonuses or penalties. Internal modifiers are generally supernatural or magical in nature. Competence, dodge, enhancement, insight, and morale modifiers are all internal.

External: External modifiers are applied from an outside source. Unlike internal bonuses, they are very rarely permanent and are usually granted by spells or magic items. Circumstance, deflection, and luck modifiers are all external.

Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources (internal and external) and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack (overlap) if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty apply. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified. Intrinsic bonuses always stack with each other and with internal and external bonuses.

For example, a character's Armor Class can be modified by armor, shield, ability (Dexterity), natural armor, and size - these are all intrinsic, and stack. It can also be modified by one internal and one external source; multiple bonuses or penalties from internal sources overlap (only the best is applied), and the same for external. The character could have a +2 dodge bonus and a +3 deflection bonus to AC; these would stack with all the intrinsic modifiers to determine his final Armor Class. If he received a +3 insight bonus (internal), it would override the dodge bonus until it wore off.


I decided to keep circumstance and luck separate because circumstance is extraordinary, while luck only derives from supernatural/magical sources - spells, items, or things like domain abilities. I came up with the extraordinary/supernatural thing at work today (I started working on this before work) and I thought it made a good justification for splitting off intrinsic bonuses.

 

[ashockney]

Updated 12/25/08:
I like this concept, a lot. It solves the primary challenge of too many splat books, and the challenge of what I believe are unintended "uber-buff" scenarios. Did the writers actually expect a cleric to go into battle under the effects of Divine Favor, Bless, Prayer, Divine Power, and Righteous Might? They do realize that the combination of all of these makes them more powerful than even a fighter, right? And that in the middle of the fight they could stop to Mass Heal? This "trump" buffing is a challenge for two reasons. On one hand, if the DM plans for his party to be uber buffed in a fight, that's a bunch of work to tweak your encounters. On the other hand, the easier method is to take away buffs. This is not only detrimental to the players (you are negating their abilities and effects), but I've seen it result in devastating consequences to the party. If you're not careful, one effective de-buffing can result in a TPK. The other big challenge I've experienced in the "buffing" zone is the complete lack of utility with durations.

In my work, I was looking for simple solutions that take as little away from the balance and gameplay. I think a "buffer" should be a viable 3rd edition gameplay class, and that people built around buffing (or debuffing) shouldn't be whacked for what they do, because it overly complicates matters.

Here was my proposed solution:
Basic modifiers to Attack, Damage, AC, and Saves include Competence, Ability, Enhancement, Armor, Natural, Deflection, and Size. These bonuses do not stack with themselves. (I believe that "shield" bonuses should be combined with deflection bonuses.)

Buff modifiers include dodge, luck, morale, haste, insight, and sacred bonuses. (I also believe that second ability bonuses should be lumped into this category, ie, a monk's ability to add Wis to AC.) All of these bonuses are lumped into one category, called a "buff" bonus. No buff bonuses should stack with ANY OTHER buff bonus, simply use the highest relevant bonus to Attack, Damage, AC, and Saving Throws. It should also be noted that any spell which provides a bonus that lasts less than 1 hour/level will ALSO be qualified as a buff bonus, and will not STACK with any other buff bonus. Most of the buff spells or abilities from classes will fit in this category. Please note, however, that these spells and abilities WILL now STACK with the basic modifiers listed above.

Therefore, Tordek the fighter (7th level) has Gauntlets of Ogre Power (+2 to Strength), Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, 16 strength, and a +2 longsword. He is +7+1+1+3+2=+14 to attack and deals 1d8+8 damage. If he is the target of a Bull's Strength spell, he now is granted a +2 to attack and damage, which is a buff bonus, and will not stack with any other bonus to attack or damage from any other buff bonuses. If he is later the recipient of a bless spell, +1 to buff to attack and to saving throws, he will be +2 to attack, and +1 to saving throws.

The only other modifier is a tactical modifier, which stacks with any buff modifier and basic modifier. Tactical modifiers typically are the result of tactical conditions, and often last only one round. These include bonuses from flanking, higher ground, cover, concealment, etc.

I've recently begun experimenting with the idea that a higher level buff bonus (6th level and above) can't be dispelled. It would actually make for a more consistent play experience (typically Greater Dispellings are going off all over the place at this level and up), and gives a little added benefit to those whose primary role is to buff or debuff.