D&D 5E Regarding DMG, Starter Set and Essentials kit: Are they good for the starting DMs?

[Paul Farquhar]

I can't speak for the starter sets, but the DMG is probably the worst DMG for new DMs in the entire history of AD&D/WotC D&D. Certainly relative to the era it is.

The 5e DMG is certainly a random stream of consciousness type of thing. But it's simply not for new players.

DMing is all about managing a game. Which you can really only learn by doing. Ever tried to learn to ride a bike by reading a book? The DMG is about world-building and content creation. Which is simply not necessary for any DM to do. It could easily be renamed The Adventure Creators Handbook.

Is that a misconception?

Yes it is. D&D is the simplest thing in the world. Much easier than learning a language. The DM describes the situation. The players narrate their actions. The DM describes the outcome. That's all there is to it. Sure, you can add rules to help the DM resolve various situations, but you can do that as you go along. It's when you stick a couple of tombstone rulebooks in front of someone that they start to panic. If you want to encourage children to read you give them comics, not Tolstoy.

 

[MockingBird]

Yes it is. D&D is the simplest thing in the world. Much easier than learning a language. The DM describes the situation. The players narrate their actions. The DM describes the outcome. That's all there is to it. Sure, you can add rules to help the DM resolve various situations, but you can do that as you go along. It's when you stick a couple of tombstone rulebooks in front of someone that they start to panic. If you want to encourage children to read you give them comics, not Tolstoy.

I agree, playing make believe is inherent from childhood. I also agree a stack a rule books intimidate some people.

 

[gorice]

In my experience, when I started out, I had only heard about this infamous game (late 2e era, mid 90s). I got the black box starter that came with the audio cd. That's all I had to go by. YouTube didn't exist. I finally got the PHB and DMG. I studied those books at the expense of my grades. I had no idea, other than the audio cd how to DM. I just kept at it. There were things that I didn't know until way later (xp for gold). I see it as waaaaay easier to learn how to DM and generally play the game these days regardless of how helpful the 5e DMG is. Even still IMO the 5e DMG is light years ahead of the 2e DMG. I dabbled in 3e (too worried about girls during that time). With 4e I may have looked over the DMG a handful of times. Out of all the editions I've played and DM'd I have found the 5e DMG the most helpful and the one I've read through the most. I think new people will be fine with what's available.

The 'black box' (Denning edition) was also my first RPG. I think if you go back and look at it now, you might be surprised by how good it is as an introduction to the game. I think the bigger problem is that we were just kids and learning something as complex as D&D (even Basic) was a tall order at that age.

The DM describes the situation. The players narrate their actions. The DM describes the outcome. That's all there is to it.

This is true, but an unbelievable amount of weight rests on the 'DM describes the outcome' part.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The point is that you are also paying to see if you like the game enough to become invested. It's like golf... you buy initial starter clubs to begin with but if you enjoy the game and get more involved in it you eventually replace some or all of those clubs. It's literally the cost of 2-3 cups of Starbucks coffee for a starter set and with a group pitching in and amazon's discounts it's much less than that. In turn it gives you a cheap option to sample vs having to go all in and realizing the game is not for you.

Is it actually that common for someone to know enough about D&D to specifically buy the starter set first, rather than buying the stuff you need to, y'know, actually play the game?

Either way, you're still saying the neophyte is expected to cough up $20 for the privilege of being ACTUALLY taught how to play the game.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The DM describes the situation. The players narrate their actions. The DM describes the outcome.

Building off what gorice said: This is like saying "Baking is the simplest thing in the world. You heat up an oven. You mix your ingredients. You put them in the oven. You take them out. Food!"

You have elided things down to the absolute highest abstraction which still even vaguely captures the activity, yes. In so doing, you have elided out ENORMOUS parts of it. To use your own language metaphor: "Learning a language is the simplest thing in the world. Someone makes sounds. You listen, then make sounds back. This continues until you both stop making sounds."

It is actually really really hard to do "DM describes the outcome" in a way that is satisfying, effective, and productive. That's literally THE reason why we pay people to write these "tombstone" books. Because doing that stuff is hard, and often goes really wrong.

Because--and I know you already know this--"let's pretend" very quickly devolves into "I hit you with my infinity sword!" "Yeah well I block it with my...uh...INFINITY PLUS ONE SHIELD!"

 

[Imaro]

Is it actually that common for someone to know enough about D&D to specifically buy the starter set first, rather than buying the stuff you need to, y'know, actually play the game?

I would think so... it's literally a google search, youtube video, WotC website visit, etc. away.

Either way, you're still saying the neophyte is expected to cough up $20 for the privilege of being ACTUALLY taught how to play the game.

I'm saying they are given the opportunity to pay $20 as opposed to $150 to both learn the fundamentals of the game and try it out before coughing up another $150 (Or playing for just that $20 with the basic rules and/or Essentials set)... but you're right it's probably a much lower barrier of entry and will bring in way more players if we require $150 to even try the game...

 

[Oofta]

Is it actually that common for someone to know enough about D&D to specifically buy the starter set first, rather than buying the stuff you need to, y'know, actually play the game?

Either way, you're still saying the neophyte is expected to cough up $20 for the privilege of being ACTUALLY taught how to play the game.

OMG! People are actually expected to pay money for books! Sacrilege!

Or ... they could start with the free core rules, the free encounter with associated video, the free bazillion or so blogs, actual play streams, google "how to play". If you're so poor that you can't afford $20 on a game it sucks, it really does. But WOTC is not a charity. Playing a game is not a god given right, it's a choice.

What exactly is the business model you're going for? What we lack in income we make up for in volume?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

What exactly is the business model you're going for? What we lack in income we make up for in volume?

Customer #1: I needed to take the bus, but all I had was a five-dollar bill. I stopped by First Citiwide, and they were able to give me four singles and four quarters.

Bank Representative: We will work with the customer to give that customer the change that he or she needs. If you come to us with a twenty-dollar bill, we can give you two tens, we can give you four fives – we can give you a ten and two fives. We will work with you.

Customer #2: I went to my First Citiwide branch to change a fifty. I guess I was in kind of a hurry, and I asked for a twenty, a ten, and two fives. Their computers picked up my mistake right away, and I got the correct change.

Bank Representative: We have been in this business a long time. With our experience, we’re gonna have ideas for change combinations that probably haven’t occurred to you. If you have a fifty-dollar bill, we can give you fifty singles. We can give you forty-nine singles and ten dimes. We can give you twenty-five twos. Come talk to us. We are not going to give you change that you don’t want. If you come to us with a hundred-dollar bill, we’re not going to give you two-thousand nickels – unless that meets your particular change needs. We will give you.. the change.. equal to.. the amount of money.. that you want change for!

Bank Representative: At First Citiwide Change Bank, Our business is making change. People ask us ... how do we make money? The answer is simple. Volume.*



*First Citiwide Change Bank did, in fact, sell their business model to MoviePass.

 

[Oofta]

Customer #1: I needed to take the bus, but all I had was a five-dollar bill. I stopped by First Citiwide, and they were able to give me four singles and four quarters.

Bank Representative: We will work with the customer to give that customer the change that he or she needs. If you come to us with a twenty-dollar bill, we can give you two tens, we can give you four fives – we can give you a ten and two fives. We will work with you.

Customer #2: I went to my First Citiwide branch to change a fifty. I guess I was in kind of a hurry, and I asked for a twenty, a ten, and two fives. Their computers picked up my mistake right away, and I got the correct change.

Bank Representative: We have been in this business a long time. With our experience, we’re gonna have ideas for change combinations that probably haven’t occurred to you. If you have a fifty-dollar bill, we can give you fifty singles. We can give you forty-nine singles and ten dimes. We can give you twenty-five twos. Come talk to us. We are not going to give you change that you don’t want. If you come to us with a hundred-dollar bill, we’re not going to give you two-thousand nickels – unless that meets your particular change needs. We will give you.. the change.. equal to.. the amount of money.. that you want change for!

Bank Representative: At First Citiwide Change Bank, Our business is making change. People ask us ... how do we make money? The answer is simple. Volume.*



*First Citiwide Change Bank did, in fact, sell their business model to MoviePass.

Same thing a lot of internet startups did, and still do today. A way of monetizing investment? Bah humbug, that's so old school! The only thing that matters is eyeballs!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Yes it is. D&D is the simplest thing in the world. Much easier than learning a language. The DM describes the situation. The players narrate their actions. The DM describes the outcome. That's all there is to it. Sure, you can add rules to help the DM resolve various situations, but you can do that as you go along. It's when you stick a couple of tombstone rulebooks in front of someone that they start to panic. If you want to encourage children to read you give them comics, not Tolstoy.

No, sorry, that's just not true.

D&D is not anywhere near that simple. You're describing RPGs, specifically DM-centric ones.

D&D is an RPG, but it is not anywhere near as simple as you're suggesting, and no, D&D does not let that be "all there is to it".

D&D has specific rules and guidelines, huge amounts of them. The whole 6-8 encounters/day and the difficulty moderation of the encounters alone places 50-100x the DM work burden that a lot of RPGs do (I mean that literally, to be clear). Then D&D is entirely DM-centric as well, with no player narration and limited player creativity allowed, RAW/RAI, which again puts vastly more weight on the DM.

And you say "Oh well people are unnecessarily panicking" and I say, no they're right to panic, D&D has too many goddamn rules and they're not good rules.

Re: encouraging people to read, ummmm, that's an unconventional take. Most educators I know would suggest neither comics nor Tolstoy were a particularly great way to get people reading. So that's just something you've made up on the spot. If you want D&D to be less like Tolstoy though, D&D needs to be redesigned. Moving away from levels would be huge if you really wanted to make D&D more accessible. Levels are the main thing that makes D&D hard to run, that and the fact that 5E is relatively tightly balanced.