Regular Feat + Sudden Feat

[BlueBlackRed]

Last night my warmage player wanted to cast a Sudden Empowered spell with Empower Spell added to it.
I told him that you can't apply the same feat twice. But he insisted that on the WotC board a lot of people told him that there are no rules against it.
He acquiesced to keep the game going, and I promised I ask the question to ENWorld as they are usually more level-headed.

One of us wrong.
Which one?

 

[rvalle]

Wohoo! I found it:

SRD:
Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell
A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

 

[starwed]

It still depends on the exact wording of the sudden metamagic feats.

 

[rvalle]

Hmm, maybe. The question seemed to be if the caster could appy the same feat twice. I don't see 'sudden' feat in the SRD.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Aren't they two seperate feats? Empower Spell and Sudden Empower Spell? It's not like one is a prereq for the other. They have similiar effects, but they are technically 2 different feats, they are applied differently as well (one makes you use up higher level spell slots, the other is no spell slots but limited to 1/day).

 

[kaomera]

Sudden Empower is not the same feat as Empower Spell; however, it states that you apply the effects of the Empower Spell feat when you use it. It does also state that "You can use Empower Spell normally if you have it." (emphasis mine), but IMHO you can't normally apply the effects of Empower Spell to a spell twice. I think you're completely justified in making that ruling, but it could be argued that the last line in the feat allows you to apply both feats to a single spell. I don't think that was the intent, and as it raises a second rules question (namely: "If you apply Empower Spell and Sudden Empower to the same spell, do the effects stack?"), IMC it's a dead issue*.

*It's a dead issue IMC anyway, because it brings into play the term <i>"effect"</i>.

 

[Quartz]

I thought the Sudden Feats were there to allow sorcerors use of the Metamagic Feats without taking a full round? Take the normal feat and you have to spend your full turn casting the spell, but then take the Sudden feat as well and you can metamagic that Feat without delay.

 

[dagger]

I thought the Sudden Feats were there to allow sorcerors use of the Metamagic Feats without taking a full round? Take the normal feat and you have to spend your full turn casting the spell, but then take the Sudden feat as well and you can metamagic that Feat without delay.

They are not directed towards one class over another. They just allow you to do it once per day without using up a higher level spell slot.

 

[Jhulae]

While the rule was written before the 'Sudden' line of feats came out, I think it's fairly clear with the intent.

"What does Empower Spell do?" "It Empowers the spell."

"And what does Sudden Empower do?" "It Empowers the spell."

Both feats empower the spell. Just because one lets you empower it suddenly doesn't mean they're not both Empower Spell feats.

Yeah, I wouldn't let them stack nor would I expect any DM.

 

[brehobit]

Yeah, I wouldn't let them stack nor would I expect any DM.

I probably would as
A) I think having both feats should let you use them.
B) I'd assume that the two feats are _different_ even if they have similar effects
C) I don't see how it would be broken. Sure you can sudden empower an empowered fireball, but you can probably find a 5th level spell to sudden empower that is just as powerful.
D) A sudden maximized empowered spell is just as bad or worse....

I _would_ make 1.5*1.5=2. So you'd just get 2x the effect. And if someone found some crazy way to break things badly, I'd undo that ruling in a heartbeat. (ray of enfeeblement perhaps?)

Mark