Rehabilitating Paragon Multiclassing

[MwaO]

Okay, so here's something that's generally taken for granted:
Paragon Multiclassing is horrible.

But...if we look at Paragon Paths, for the most part, they tend to break up as follows:
Tier 1: Crazy strong option that's gained at 11th and then some other strong option gained at either 11th/16th. Examples: Demonskin Adept, Warchanter, Flame of Hope, Resourceful Magician
Tier 2: Strong option gained at 11th or crazy strong option gained at 16th, otherwise not a horrible Paragon Path - Divine Oracle, Lifesinger, Shock Trooper, Evermeet Warlock, Dreamwalker
Tier 3 - kind of anything below that's reasonably good and generally above PMC
Tier 4 - bunch of 'sucky' paragon paths. PMC is believed to live here.
Tier 5 - Really horrible paragon paths.

But wait a second, looking the Poachable Powers thread, there are a number of classes that have at least 2 very strong powers to poach in each category. There are also a number of classes that have very strong features, but not more than 2 very strong powers in each category.

And that leads to some interesting intersections. As examples:
From the Paragon Multiclassing
PMC Warlord - Vengeance is Mine, Rousing Words, Victory Surge
PMC Fighter - Rain of Blows, Kirre's Roar, Dust Storm's Assault
PMC Wizard - Color Spray, Illusory Wall, Slumber of the Winter's Court

Power Swaps Made by 13th while kind of ignoring the daily powers
Warlord - Death from Two Sides, Tactical Orders, Warmaster's Assault
Fighter - Come and Get It/Trip Up, Fighter's Grit/Martial Supremacy, Unyielding Avalanche
Wizard - Dark Gathering, Shield, All kinds of crazy

So as an example, a Fighter with an Int score PMCs into Warlord - he gets Vengeance is Mine and Death from Two Sides as encounter powers - two very strong Encounter powers for a Fighter. He has Rousing Words for an encounter heal and Tactical Orders for an opening burst of shifting as a minor action - allowing the Fighter to get past the Soldier/Brute in the front. All of this is online by 13th(including the ability to add Int to initiative with a couple of obvious feats)

Is it Tier 1? No, it isn't. But I'd argue it would cause about the same amount of problems that many of the Tier 2 Paragon Paths do in a game and certainly beats the average Paragon Path which has a couple of strong features and some decent powers.

Thoughts?

 

[darkbard]

Well, erachima proved with the Mia build that, in certain corner cases, PMC can certainly be made to put together a top notch optimized character. But in a more general way, there is the opportunity cost associated with PMC to be taken into account along with what is gained in place of an actual PP. Your hypothetical fighter, investing in INT, will never see certain top notch DEX based powers, probably doesn't have the feat space for Superior Will or Improved Defenses until well into Paragon, etc.

Do I think PMC can be made to work equivalent to a "good" traditional PP? Possibly. But the opportunity cost to do so may be too high.

 

[MwaO]

Well, erachima proved with the Mia build that, in certain corner cases, PMC can certainly be made to put together a top notch optimized character. But in a more general way, there is the opportunity cost associated with PMC to be taken into account along with what is gained in place of an actual PP. Your hypothetical fighter, investing in INT, will never see certain top notch DEX based powers, probably doesn't have the feat space for Superior Will or Improved Defenses until well into Paragon, etc.

The feat cost is high(4 out of 6 feats), but there's a lot of utility coming back from those feats. Resourceful Leader is a great MC feat. Vengeance is Mine(an E1) means that if someone respects your mark, they'll take 2 attacks in return which is not an expected outcome. Tactical Orders is a 'I shift my speed and so does my friend' as a minor action to open up combat.

Sure, you probably don't have Superior Will quickly, but those are big adjustments to overall power at a relatively low cost. Dead opponents can't daze you...

 

[mellored]

2 big reasons.

1: it takes a lot of feats.
2: stats don't match up.

Thus, i purpose 2 changes.

1: Advanced multi-class. Prequisite: A multi class feat.
You can swap an at-will, encounter, and daily power with one of the same level.

2: PMC: When you PMC, you can use the primary stat as your main class for to-hit rolls with your multi-class powers. Damage and riders do not change.

 

[Zathris]

Here is my reason behind "Don't ever PMC*"
Why aren't you Hybrid? Hybrid+MC gives you 3 classes worth of PPs. On the chance the e11 sucks, Resman exists and you're still 1 feat up on PMC (the other feat presumed to be HT). This leaves 2 Hybrid Features + PP Features + U12 and D20 competing with 1 Pure Features + U16 and D19 + PMC Feat option.
In many cases the next question is: Why aren't you just that other class?

In the end the viability of PMC is not really reliant on how strong the class you're PMCing is, but how weak the base class is. PMC requires Features strong enough to stay pure-class of that class, but weak enough power options (I guess you could just burn the MC feats and not swap, but that makes an even bigger gap) AND PPs (even if you MC) and having another class that matches Stats + Accessory ... that's not a long list. I can mostly see it for a couple Strikers, maybe Shaman, and the Augmenting classes.

 

[darkbard]

One way of continuing the conversation around this thought-experiment further would be to post a couple of sample builds as comparisons. Put together that Fighter PMC Warlord, for example, and compare him to a straight Fighter with a second-tier PP. Having a few fleshed out examples might make the case more convincing (or dismiss it as not truly viable). Just sayin'.

 

[MwaO]

Don't have compendium any longer, but at 13th, it wouldn't be hard to have something like this:
1: Resourceful Leader
2: Flail Expertise
4: Novice Power to trade Fighter 1 for Vengeance is Mine - note this is going to routinely mean turning a mark respect into a double tap
6: Improved Initiative(retrain at 11th for Combat Commander for Int to Init)
8: Acolyte Power for Reorient the Axis, later Rousing Words at 12th when Tactical Orders is available.
10: Adept Power for Lamb to the Slaughter or Lead the Attack instead of the relatively lackluster Fighter 1 daily powers.
11: Battle Instructor
12: Improved Defenses

So powers might be like this at 13th:
D1: Lead the Attack
U2: Glowering Threat
E3: Rain of Blows
D5: Rain of Blades
U6: Rousing Words
E7: Come and Get It
D9: Stop Thrust
U10: Fighter's Grit
E13: Death from Two Sides
PMC
E1-10: Vengeance is Mine
U1-10: Tactical Orders

It might not be a powerhouse build in the tier 1 range, but that build is going to make a lot of things happen in combat - I'd probably look at Human, both for the extra feat and the +4 to hit to make Death from Two Sides land, or Elf to make the 15 Dex easy to get in Heroic(while boosting Int) and again, for the ability to make sure Death from Two Sides land.

Yes, it doesn't have a lot of damage feats, but then again, it is making things happen by causing damage, adding lots of mobility, making initiative a lot better party-wide, and a little bit of encounter healing. And it does so by having a lot of top-tier powers. And it would be reasonably straightforward to practical play from 1-30. It wouldn't be typical by any means, but I think it would likely be fun in most games.

 

[darkbard]

Okay, so I plugged your hypothetical build into the CB (trying to guess at some of the other choices, like starting ability scores), and it comes out something like this:

[sblock]====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
PMC Trial, level 13
Elf, Fighter (Weaponmaster), Paragon Multiclassing
Fighter Option: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents Option: One-handed Weapon Talent
Inherent Bonuses
Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
Theme: Guardian

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 19, CON 11, DEX 16, INT 20, WIS 14, CHA 9

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 10, DEX 13, INT 15, WIS 13, CHA 8


AC: 30 Fort: 26 Ref: 27 Will: 22
HP: 107 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 26

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +13, Endurance +12, History +16, Intimidate +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +7, Arcana +11, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +8, Insight +10, Nature +10, Perception +12, Religion +11, Stealth +7, Streetwise +5, Thievery +7

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Guardian Attack: Guardian's Counter
Elf Racial Power: Elven Accuracy
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Fighter Attack 1: Cleave
Fighter Attack 1: Footwork Lure
Warlord Attack 1: Lead the Attack
Warlord Attack 1: Vengeance is Mine
Fighter Utility 2: Glowering Threat
Fighter Attack 3: Rain of Blows
Fighter Attack 5: Rain of Steel
Warlord Utility 6: Rousing Words
Fighter Attack 7: Come and Get It
Fighter Attack 9: Stop Thrust
Fighter Utility 10: Fighter's Grit
Warlord Utility 10: Tactical Orders
Warlord Attack 13: Death from Two Sides

FEATS
Level 1: Resourceful Leader
Level 2: Flail Expertise
Level 4: Novice Power
Level 8: Acolyte Power
Level 10: Adept Power
Level 11: Battle Instructor
Level 11: Combat Commander
Level 12: Improved Defenses

ITEMS
Alhulak x1
Heavy Shield x1
Dwarven Scale Armor +3 x1
====== End ======[/sblock]

Is this what you have in mind? There's not much that can be done with that Will defense with the stat spread.

 

[MwaO]

Actually, looking in detail, I'd probably go Human Fighter starting with 18 Str, 13 Con, 14 Dex, 14 Cha, always raising Str/Cha with a lot of retraining until everything comes online. And I'd pick Ironwrought rather than Guardian. But at 13th, a typical opening round could look like this:
Move forward a little if necessary to set up Tactical Orders to flank target
Minor: Tactical Orders - melee basic striker+you shift speed toward possible targets, hopefully flanking
Standard: Death From Two Sides with you using Ironwrought's make two attack rolls. Given you have a +4 to hit as an option from being human, +1 from being a Fighter & a double-roll & CA, you're not going to miss very much. And presumably your striker friend with CA and being a striker won't either.

All kinds of interesting options open up with Vengeance is Mine, Glowering Threat, maybe the striker went first and you went after his target, and/or the fact you've marked the target. "Hey, have a -7 to hit anyone but me and if you go after me, you'll take 2 attacks back..."

And of course, this is in the context that you're adding +3-+7 to initiative once Paragon rolls around - sure, more expensive than for a pure Warlord, but still - no Warlord parties will be very happy to see you...

 

[RenZhe]

I would not say that that is a good build which promotes your case. You've spent all of your feats getting warlord powers and class features AND you've spent your turn 1 opening kata doing performing what was wholly a leader function (you could counter-argue that you did mark, but you just set your party striker on the target and gave him a free crit, so that mark is of dubious utility), which begs the question, why are you playing a fighter over a warlord in the first place? Contrast vs a fighter who actually uses CaGI + Glowering Threat as his opening kata and actually fulfilling the needs of his role.

A much better build justification would be Dragonborn Fighter/PMC Warlord.

Open with Tactical Orders + Death from Two Sides, then Dragonfear + Baleful Glance. You leadstrike a primary target, then mass-mark and debuff a field of others, including a daze on two of them. In this case, running this on a full fighter chassis would be much more justified as you can actually mass-mark with dragonfear.

A successful PMC should really be held to the same standard as a hybrid - you have to either gain by being better at your primary job (e.g. Mia), or you have to perform at least 80% on both your intended roles. Your case is more like a 55-55% that's also down 3 feats.