Reincarnate = Immortality?

[Sejs]

I find your reasoning a little more palatable because it doesn't rely on fiat, though I question the concept that magic is inherently unnatural. In OUR world, the real world, it is thought of as such, but that's not to say that in a campaign world magic isn't part of the natural order of things.

*nod* Fair enough. In regard of the natural vs supernatural divide in this case, I'm largely using "what would normally occur barring interference by outside agency" as a guideline for what defines natural instance. So while the existance of fey (as personifications of natural features) would serve as a prime example of magic inherrent to nature, a deer that escapes being a mountain lion's lunch doesn't normally get the benefit of any cure spells cast on it - it either succumbs to its wounds or it heals over time and carries on. That's the natural course of events and thus anything beyond that scope would therefor be beyond natural.

That's my basic assessment, anyway. I hadn't really stated it before and probably should have.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I just got to wondering - via the mechanism of limited wish, a wizard or sorceror could use this to cheat death?

Avoids the personal ethical issues that a druid might/might not suffer from...

Would it be stealing off of nature?


In a more convoluted method, you could avoid the need for a flunky: Contingent Reincarnation?

Guess you'd need either some levels of druid + wizard, scrolls, UMD or whatever?

 

[Sejs]

Guess you'd need either some levels of druid + wizard, scrolls, UMD or whatever?

Craft Contingent Spell - use limited wish to recreate reincarnate cast on yourself triggered when you die.

 

[Space Coyote]

To add more fuel to the discussion fire, in the Spell Compendium is the spell Last Breath. It functions exactly the same as Reincarnation with the following differences:

1) -1 Action casting time (as opposed to 10 minutes)
2) 500 gp material component (as opposed to 1000gp)
3) Must be cast within 1 round of the recipients death (as opposed to 1 week).
4) NO level/CON loss.

So, if your Druid has a lot of these prepared, you could keep getting reincarnated frequently, at the cost of 500gp per casting. So, a fellow player and I were discussing the (metagaming) ramifications).

Druid stocks on on Last Breath spells (could get a wand, scrolls or whatever with lots of charges). Then a PC kills themself and the Druid reincarnates them. If the PC doesnt like their new form, the pay the Druid another 500gp and gets another reincarnate. Repeat until you get a new body (within the limits of the Reincarnate list) or you run out of money.

 

[Banshee16]

If high level characters all have ways to become immortal, your going to have a lot of immortal people in a standard dnd setting And as more and more high level people come in, the high level ranks are going to get a bit crowded.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think it would be more a matter of personal choice. Some who have the ability might choose to live forever. But it would be like artificially extending life on Earth. Not everyone wants to take that step. In a fantasy world, where the rewards of living a faithful life are real and tangible (ie. clerics can talk to their gods), the subject of choosing to leave after one's natural time on in life would be something far easier to make a choice on.

This is not to imply that the God respected by real world religions isn't real. He's just more subtle than clerics in a game who can throw flamestrikes and such.

With respect to druids, someone else mentioned that druids would naturally want to reincarnate, so that they could continue to interact with nature etc. I don't quite agree. Druids might choose to pass on, because death is a natural part of life. Endlessly reincarnating themselves might be seen as a way of circumventing the natural order of things.

Personally I like the idea of the reincarnation spell better than Raise Dead and Resurrection. It has more immediate and concrete consequences than the others do. An excellent sample is the Wheel of Time novels, where so many of the Forsaken have been reincarnated into new bodies. They are still around, but in many cases (ie. Balthamel, Lanfear), are very different from who they once were.

So I'm not sure all high level characters would elect immortality. Some might view death as a welcome release from the troubles of their lives, and the opportunity to get their true reward. And since that Lvl 20 paladin knows he's going to be happy on Mount Celestia, possibly becoming a powerful archon, why would he try to hold it off? Sure, the low level characters and commoners might not know....but they wouldn't have the choice to live forever anyways. And by the time a character is lvl 20, they know enough about the planes etc. to know what their afterlife would likely be like.

Finally, I too dislike the fact that they've excised all the ways to cheat time. There are plenty of NPCs in the books and games, and more importantly, in standard fantasy literature, who can do so....I don't know why 3.5 has to be against it. Lifespan *is* a "fluffy" issue. How many characters are there running around who get into their middle years? Given that everyone in a group is usually the same level, if one guy wants to play a 40 year old, all he's doing is giving himself a mechanical disadvantage against the other players who are playing 18-year olds. The DM won't let him start at a higher level, afterall. But between characters like Elminster, Manshoon, the Seven Sisters, the Nameless One, Mordenkainen, Fistandantilus/Raistlin, etc. in D&D, and others like Pub/Milamber, Merlin, etc. in non-D&D literature, I'm not sure why they removed longevity from the game. And 3.5 makes a big point against using "fluff" disadvantages to offset mechanical advantages. Yet lifespan (fluff) is being used to balance against mechanical advantages...

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

In a more convoluted method, you could avoid the need for a flunky: Contingent Reincarnation?

Someone created this spell on the Planescape mailing list, using 3.0 rules. I might actually still have it somewhere, but I'd have to search through about 1000 or so e-mails.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

Let's see... with the standard Reincarnate listing, there is....

an 83% chance of a PHB race (Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling, Human),
a 12% chance of an LA +0 non-PHB race (Orc, Kobold, Goblin),
a 4% chance of somthing with racial HD and a level adjustment (Bugbear, Gnoll, Lizardfolk, Troglodite),
and a 1% chance of a critter of complete DM fiat.

So basically, you've got a 95% chance of avoiding any and all LA and racial HD from Reincarnate.

What's really fun, though, it's that it's a young adult body, and your mind is mostly untouched; if you get Reincarnated just after hitting Venerable, you argueably keep the +3 to all mental stats (as they are unchanged) while losing the -6 to all physical stats (as it's a young adult body) from age... not that a high-level druid needs to worry about physical stat loss.

I tend to agree here, though I'd rule that you only get the mental bonuses from old age *once*. So if you make it to 80 as a human, and come back as a young man, then go to 80 again, you wouldn't get another 3 points of INT/Wis/CHA. I *might* rule that the character gets +1 to each of those...but not +3. And the +1 would simply be because of the depth of experience that the person would have....not only by living longer, but living two lifetimes with different bodies, but the same soul.

The brain tends to discard stuff it doesn't use though.....so any old racial abilities would be lost and replaced by the new ones. And a human man that came back as a centaur in time might no longer remember what it was like to have 2 legs, or toes etc., for instance.

Banshee