Removing spellcasting from dragons...

[Derren]

If you stripped out the standard-everybody-does-it spellcasting, and said "these dragons also commonly add sorcerer class levels, if the DM so chooses", then that would make a lot of sense, and be historically within D&D standards.

Historically dragons never had class levels in previous editions. It was all natural like it is now.

 

[Psion]

My attitude is that having all dragons be spellcasters is a uniquely 3.x design change to D&D.

I think you remember incorrectly. White dragons were the weakest spellcasters in core pre-3e, and even they got spellcasting, meager though it was (IIRC, the oldest white dragon got 4 1st level spells.)

 

[ruleslawyer]

Spellcasting is simply part of D&D dragons and removing it makes no sense at all.

Natural fallacy, anyone?

 

[Voadam]

I think you remember incorrectly. White dragons were the weakest spellcasters in core pre-3e, and even they got spellcasting, meager though it was (IIRC, the oldest white dragon got 4 1st level spells.)

They did in 2e, not sure in red box basic or 1e though.

http://www.planetadnd.com/interactive_books/mm00058.php

 

[Felix]

I like spellcasting in some dragons.

I like gold and red dragons to be arcane spellcasters; maybe silvers.

I like my Asian-flavored wingless-who-can-still-fly dragons to cast like Druids.

I like flavorfull SLAs on the other dragons: like Mirage Arcana for Blues (they live in the desert... get it?), Wall of Ice and Sleet Storm for Whites, Glibness for Coppers, etc...

I like basic SLAs for every dragon: Suggestion, Identify, Hypnotism, etc...

But no, I don't want every aged dragon to be a full spellcaster.

 

[Gold Roger]

Hm, how about giving dragons one spell like at will ability of each spell level he usually could access through spells?

This way dragons are still unique, very magical, and can be decently resistant to high magiced parties, but decently easy to keep track of.

Nothing I'd put into a Core book, but seems like a good "quick fix" to me.

 

[Eridanis]

Another way to look at non-spellcasting dragons is to go with the template from Green Ronin's ADVANCED BESTIARY. I don't remember the name of the template, but it provides a way to throw devolved, dumber, non-spellcasting dragons at a party (and at a lower CR, to boot). In my campaign, there's design room for both types to co-exist.

 

[Slobber Monster]

If I were inclined to redesign dragons I would probably give them at will or always on SLA's that matched up with what is currently their caster level. These would mostly be non-combat abilities usefull for adventure design so I would shift down the CR by 1 or 2.

Off the top of my head:

3.5
Dragon CL  :       SLA
 3rd               Hypnotism
 5rd               Detect Thoughts
 7th               Tongues
 9th               Detect Scrying
 11th              Mage’s Private Sanctum
 13th              True Seeing
 15th              Greater Arcane Sight
 17th              Dimensional Lock
 19th              Soul Bind (dragon's teeth or somesuch are foci)

There's a dragon who does dragonish magic - fascinating non-combatants and peering into their heads. As it reaches adulthood it becomes almost impossible to spy on or decieve, If you just want to use it as a rampaging fire breathing beast then most of those don't even have to be considered during combat.

 

[Voadam]

I am thinking of dropping the spellcasting of dragons and dropping the CR by 1 for each 2 sorcerer levels removed. If I want a dragon to cast spells, I'll just give it sorcerer levels.

That should work, they are basically non associated levels for a big predator, except for the loss of the d4 HD, skill points, BAB, and saves when you reconstruct back to the standard spellcasting dragon.

 

[Derren]

There's a dragon who does dragonish magic - fascinating non-combatants and peering into their heads. As it reaches adulthood it becomes almost impossible to spy on or decieve, If you just want to use it as a rampaging fire breathing beast then most of those don't even have to be considered during combat.

And it would make the dragon a lot weaker.