Removing spellcasting from dragons...

[Nifft]

Thing is, all players know something about dragons.

- They're big.
- They're tough.
- They breathe fire (or something).
- They have lots of treasure.
- They are magical.

If you break that too much, you may surprise players, but it's at the expense of a long-standing tradition (stereotype?).

-- N

 

[Particle_Man]

Complete Warrior has a feat called Arcane Might that converts spells into extra meelee damage (and to hit). Maybe a dragon could just use that and become more of a meelee powerhouse?

 

[Slobber Monster]

And it would make the dragon a lot weaker.

Which is why I advised dropping the CR.

 

[Klaus]

Complete Warrior has a feat called Arcane Might that converts spells into extra meelee damage (and to hit). Maybe a dragon could just use that and become more of a meelee powerhouse?

Arcane Strike. Spend a spell slot to gain + (spell level) to attacks and (spell level)d4 to damage for 1 round. So a dragon could spend, say, a 4th-level spell slot to gain +4 to hit and +4d4 damage to *all its attacks*! We're talking +4d4 damage to bite, 2 claws, 2 wing buffets and 1 tail slap!

 

[frankthedm]

Arcane Strike. Spend a spell slot to gain + (spell level) to attacks and (spell level)d4 to damage for 1 round. So a dragon could spend, say, a 4th-level spell slot to gain +4 to hit and +4d4 damage to *all its attacks*! We're talking +4d4 damage to bite, 2 claws, 2 wing buffets and 1 tail slap!

One reason why it can be a Good Thing dragons are built from the Ground Up. They are how the DM shows the players just how balanced the splat material they asked for is. PC or NPC, everyone chooses from the same feats. Giants love Brutal Throw, Dragons love anything the casters do, heck practiced spellcaster was practicly made for them.

On that subject, complete arcane has some feats that dragons could make decent use of while also nuking their spell caster levels. Mage slayer and Pierce magical protection both hurt their casting, but those feats also negate their foes from casting defensively and would let the dragon slice through and slice off spell based AC boosts..

 

[frankthedm]

I am thinking of dropping the spellcasting of dragons and dropping the CR by 1 for each 2 sorcerer levels removed. If I want a dragon to cast spells, I'll just give it sorcerer levels.

1 big problem. Dragon CRs seem to be set accounting for the dragon always having too many options in combat. A creature with 5 solid options in a combat is not usually much tougher that a creature with 3 solid options. This reasoning is a big reason for non associated levels, since 2 plates of food [Melee or Spellcast] matter a lot less when you only have room to eat one [actions per round]. I'd say there is a good chance dragons got that spellcasting at an even better value than 2 caster levels per CR.

I kind of like spellcasting dragons since this way at least one caster MUST Dispel the Mage Armor and possibly Shield and other buffs like Stoneskin; before the tanks can really go to work [if they even get the chance].

 

[SolitonMan]

I'm not sure how many people have read it, but Mongoose Publishing released a great book on dragons a while back (the Classic Play Book of Dragons) that has a detailed section on customization. It allows for all sorts of options for dragons - focus on melee, focus on breath, focus on magic - and enables maintenance of the current CR, IIRC.

The details of the book can be found at http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/d20/detail.php?qsID=203&qsSeries=14

A review can be found on ENWorld by John Cooper at http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=product&productid=119150

While I like the dragons to have spellcasting, frankthedm has nailed it right on the head - the action limitations kind of make the multitude of abilities superfluous (<- Word-A-Day calendar is great!!! )

 

[frankthedm]

While I like the dragons to have spellcasting, frankthedm has nailed it right on the head - the action limitations kind of make the multitude of abilities superfluous (<- Word-A-Day calendar is great!!! )

Dragons are just one of the reasons I feal the designers barring Quicken spell from sorcerers and other spontaneous casters was a very good idea.

 

[Derren]

Dragons are just one of the reasons I feal the designers barring Quicken spell from sorcerers and other spontaneous casters was a very good idea.

Except that with a certain feat dragon can use quicken just fine.

 

[frankthedm]

Except that with a certain feat dragon can use quicken just fine.

As I said..."They are how the DM shows the players just how balanced the splat material they asked for is. PC or NPC, everyone chooses from the same feats."