Replacing or modifying kuo-toans

[xpaperplanex]

Hey! I'm running the Shackled City adventure path, and we've just started chapter 4, where the players have to go to a kuo-toan shrine to rescue someone. We cut it off last week after they left the city, and learned this morning that one of my players has spent the week researching kuo-toans and their abilities. He's always had some issues with metagaming, but I think that actually going and looking up the monsters is going a bit beyond needing a reminder that it isn't information that his character has.

So I'd like to either modify the kuo-toans so he (and the other players he's told now) don't know exactly what they're facing, or just replace them entirely with something on a similar challenge level, and I was wondering if anyone here has any suggestions. I don't have a whole lot of time, but can probably fit in a couple extra hours to prep before we play tomorrow.

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Kuo-toa whips are known for dishing out lightning bolts. You could replace those with custom water spells that shove PCs around. It'll be nasty to anyone who assumed that a lot of Resist Lightning spells would protect them.

Kuo-toa monitors are monks, or something similar anyway. If you have Book of Nine Swords you could steal some ideas from classes there and create kuo-toa with class levels.

Kuo-toa with harpoons and sticky shields are a staple, though, so I'm not sure if you can do anything about those. But here's an idea: cavalry. There's some really old AD&D (or earlier) adventure that portrays kuo-toa mounted on giant lobsters. The lobsters are really good grapplers, so you could replace some harpooners with those, and give the riding kuo-toa Spirited Charge.

Or just replace them with classed sahuagin, if the Underdark isn't a big part of the adventure.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Bad solution: Create an in-game solution to an out-of-game problem. Change your plans (create extra work for yourself) to accommodate That Guy.
Good solution: Don't play with That Guy.

 

[billd91]

If the player gets them to stock up on lightning protection without any in-game justification, just switch the damage type to acid, fire, or cold. Otherwise, it's not like the kuo-toa have a ton of abilities that would break the game if they were known beforehand. They're reasonably well-known for D&D players and an experienced player might have them figured out after the first encounter anyway.

If this is a problem with the player, find out what the other players think. If nobody really cares and all he is looking up is monster abilities, that's not exactly an insurmountable problem. Consider calling him on it but letting him off the hook if he dumps his next level skill points into giving him an in-game reason for having that sort of knowledge. Let the PC reflect the player's actual style...

 

[xpaperplanex]

Thanks for the ideas. I like the thought of mounting a few of them--that could be fun regardless. I agree that making more work for myself isn't really the best way to handle it, but I know that at least one of the other players that was a part of the conversation gets a lot of her enjoyment out of not knowing what's coming. She's pretty new to playing, so she doesn't have the lore knowledge that the other players do, and I don't want to let this guy take that away from her. (And not playing with him isn't really an option at this point for a variety of reasons.) A friend suggested charging him for the knowledge retroactively (the cost of having someone research it or cast a divination) and making him spend a couple skill points on it as well as a deterrent to doing it again, which I think I'm going to do, as well as adding in a few with different spells from the standards or the lobster mounts.

 

[diaglo]

does it have to be Kuo Toa?
switch them to fresh water versions of sahuagin instead. a new monster. use the sahaugin as your base.
still fish men

 

[Starfox]

Knowledge like this is only a problem if you let it be. What is DnD to you? If it is a tactical game, showing the enemy's abilities actually presents the players with more intelligent choices. If this makes the combat too easy for your taste, adding more opponents is simple.

If you're looking for a "gotcha" moment where you pull a nasty new move on the unsuspecting players, I ask you to be careful about that - its never as fun on the other side of the screen.

Only if you are playing in exploration mode can I see a big problem - that is the OCC knowledge removes the party's IC opportunities to learn these things. My players appreciate such IC research and information gathering, but if your players don't, perhaps this is the game they want?

I'd try for an in-game solution. Try and sell him on playing a scholarly character, or merely assume the character consulted a sage, and ask him to role-play his knowledge for the other players. Make it a positive aspect of the game instead of trying to punish him.

 

[Grogg of the North]

A couple people here have mentioned sahaugin and I'd like to chime in with that as well, if you're going to redo the monsters. Remember there are a lot of neat things already in the city to throw off the party. The boatman is a little bit nuts and Ashanna (sp?) will just make their lives miserable.

Otherwise, I would talk to the player out of session. Inform them that the meta-gaming is affecting the play for people at the table. Yes, your fun is important too, Mr. DM. And then let them know that if this continues that Serious Consequences will follow. Whether that means forcing them to spend skill points in the appropriate knowledges, an XP penalty or being booted from the table is up to you.

 

[Celebrim]

Hey! I'm running the Shackled City adventure path, and we've just started chapter 4, where the players have to go to a kuo-toan shrine to rescue someone. We cut it off last week after they left the city, and learned this morning that one of my players has spent the week researching kuo-toans and their abilities. He's always had some issues with metagaming, but I think that actually going and looking up the monsters is going a bit beyond needing a reminder that it isn't information that his character has.

Agreed. However, out of game problems shouldn't be addressed with in game solutions.

So I'd like to either modify the kuo-toans so he (and the other players he's told now) don't know exactly what they're facing, or just replace them entirely with something on a similar challenge level

What is your motivation for this? My suspicion is that it is not a good one. The DM should never be hoping to impress his players, particularly with the danger represented by the foes they face. If you are spending times imagining your party confused, afraid, and being pushed around, you are failing as a DM. Fundamentally, you are committing the same sin as "Nitro" Fergusson. Nitro is a very imaginative DM, but he's all the time wanting to play 'gotcha'.

Frankly, your game world should be rich enough that players don't feel the need to turn to OOC sources for IC information.

And if the problem goes critical, and you have a player reading the module you are running or stealing peaks at your notes when you leave the table, then you are going to have to deal with it. You won't be able to continue escalating the response to metagaming with metagaming indefinitely.

 

[Scorpio616]

Use the Skum for feircer memebers with the Locathah comprising the more civilized members of the race..

Deploy Large fishmen that are just aquatic Ogres or maybe aquatic hill giants, (Switch the thrown rocks to oversized tridents).

Green or black dragon with a squid head could make a good heavy hitter.