Request for Comments on Beyond 20th Level Progressions

[heylel]

short version:
Homebrew epic level progressions for Fighter:Champion, Paladin:Vengeance, Ranger:Hunter, Sorcerer: Dragon.
No fluff included, please comment.

doc - https://docs.google.com/document/d/16HD1ozDy1Lh2HHGGdkmA8byIxHfZVKipmC2GDc4vKQw/edit?usp=sharing
pdf - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B24skJU7OD_edXAwbEpDWUlVM1U/view?usp=sharing


long version:

I am current DMing a campaing in the FR setting that began loosely based on the Time of Dragons Adventurers' League storyline, which has long ago gone the way of sandbox.

After a 100 virtual gaming sessions, the PCs got past 20th level.
That by itself is not an issue, as I have already DMed and they already played "epic" campaings before.
(I've been playing D&D in one form or another since 1984, and I am still having absurd amounts of fun with it!)
The problem is that, so far, D&D 5e (by design, I suppose) offers very little support to going "epic".

After some talks with the players, we all kind of disliked the Epic Boons (5e DMG pg 231).
What followed as a little brainstorming session that resulted in some guidelines:
- we are having fun, we want more of the same.
- improve current features, not create new ones.
- past 20th level should (continue to) be awesome, but not god-like.
- bounded accuracy is nice, but it will be unavoidably broken.
- twenty more levels will do, for now.

I then made a draft, and we had our first round of comments in the group.
Eventally, one of the players suggested that I post a RFC here.

About the draft:
- It is fluff-free, but trying to maintain the theme (of the classes/archetypes).
- The feature descriptions are meant as a continuation of the same named feature on the PH.
- We are still missing the expanded (6th to 9th level) Ranger and Paladin spell lists and oath spells (suggestions?).
- It only contains the four classes/archetypes being currently played on the campaing (we also have a Druid/CotLand, who has yet to reach 20th level).


Thanks in advance for any feedback,
- Heylel (deep deep lurker).

 

[TallIan]

I've only had a quick look, but my initial thoughts are: simple and elegant using the same progression table and upgrading everything.

The only thing I would say I don't like is half casters getting spells past 5th level, or least all the way to 9th. To me those should be the domain of pure casters, or characters who are prepared to commit to a pure caster multiclass option long enough to achieve it that way.

 

[heylel]

I've only had a quite look, but my initial thoughts are: simple and elegant using the same progression table and upgrading everything.

The only thing I would say I don't like is half casters getting spells past 5th level, or least all the way to 9th. To me those should be the domain of pure casters, or characters who are prepared to commit to a pure caster multiclass option long enough to achieve it that way.

Thanks for the feedback!

I am currently undecided on the spells too.
Some things I have been keeping in mind (regarding Ranger/Paladin spells):
- by a loose reading of the multiclass rules (PH 164), that would be the spell sots they would get;
- I might not actually allow Rgr/Pal spells of levels 6th-9th, but I kind of think that the slots should be made availiable anyway.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

You don't have to advance. I'd stick with the Boon system - little things like can attune to an additional item, expertise on a single skill, etc

 

[TallIan]

Thanks for the feedback!

I am currently undecided on the spells too.
Some things I have been keeping in mind (regarding Ranger/Paladin spells):
- by a loose reading of the multiclass rules (PH 164), that would be the spell sots they would get;
- I might not actually allow Rgr/Pal spells of levels 6th-9th, but I kind of think that the slots should be made availiable anyway.

Actually that makes sense, I got a got a bit fixated on the 6-9th level spell slots and forgot that there aren't actually 6-9th level spells.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[heylel]

You don't have to advance. I'd stick with the Boon system - little things like can attune to an additional item, expertise on a single skill, etc

I do see your point, and it may yet work in other circumstances, but that was the path rejected at my (virtual) table.

Some issues my particular group has with the Boons:
- The actual PC classes gain nothing more. A 40th level Rogue would have the same Rogue features as a 30th level Rogue, and as a 20th level Rogue. It is like a muticlass Rogue 20 / Boon 20, a separate class (Boon'ed) that everyone must multiclass into after 20th level. There is a significant effort to make classes distinct from 1st to 20th, and then everyone gets to be the same.
- The progression (1 ability per N amount of XP) does not sound, to us, like D&D.
- XP progression is flat 30k per Boon, and rewards get increasingly higher by CR. Which, at really high levels, seems to cause the PCs to accumulate Boons and 'levels' really fast.
- Boon 'levels' do not seem to match well against a equivalent monster CR.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

My experience with D&D over a few editions/versions now has show me that the ones that work best in the capacity of "keep playing forever" are the ones that scale things back, and then even turn most of things "off" at a certain point - such as AD&D 2nd edition (pre-DM's Option: High-Level Campaigns and it's level 30 hard cap idea), BECMI, and 5th edition.

The reason being that the other approach, to continue to have just as much "new stuff" for each level as the character keeps progressing, very rapidly sets the PCs up to outclass every challenge established by the game material up to that point - you have to stop using the Monster Manual and start devising a different set of "epic" monsters, and you have to have everything that's meant to feel challenging be things that are basically as near to what the system normally considers impossible because the character's abilities keep growing beyond the point that the normal game's "hard" DCs have become relatively easy.

So yes, the boon system might feel less like the characters are getting more of their own class shtick at some point (definitely not right away, as fighter types probably aren't taking the same boons as mage types until at least the 3rd or 4th boon they take, because boons are not each equally beneficial to each sort of character), but it at least allows for the game to stay playable with a smaller amount of effort for a longer period of time.

And as far as the "sound like D&D" bit - for a very long time, it was the standard in D&D that experience needed for the next level hit a plateau. Specifically, from the game's creation in the middle-ish 1970s until 3rd edition was released in 2000 (or thereabouts), characters over a certain level (ranging from 8 to 10 depending on version and class) typically had a flat X more experience to next level value.

 

[heylel]

My experience with D&D over a few editions/versions now has show me that the ones that work best in the capacity of "keep playing forever" are the ones that scale things back, and then even turn most of things "off" at a certain point - such as AD&D 2nd edition (pre-DM's Option: High-Level Campaigns and it's level 30 hard cap idea), BECMI, and 5th edition.
...
And as far as the "sound like D&D" bit - for a very long time, it was the standard in D&D that experience needed for the next level hit a plateau. Specifically, from the game's creation in the middle-ish 1970s until 3rd edition was released in 2000 (or thereabouts), characters over a certain level (ranging from 8 to 10 depending on version and class) typically had a flat X more experience to next level value.

Ah... you just had me hit hard by the nostalgia right now.

Regarding the "sound like D&D", my current players have only played AD&D2nd, 3.x and now 5ed. And they consistently took part in sandbox campaings that whent 'epic' while playing 3.x, which I now reason may be the root cause of their expectatives...

The reason being that the other approach, to continue to have just as much "new stuff" for each level as the character keeps progressing, very rapidly sets the PCs up to outclass every challenge established by the game material up to that point - you have to stop using the Monster Manual and start devising a different set of "epic" monsters, and you have to have everything that's meant to feel challenging be things that are basically as near to what the system normally considers impossible because the character's abilities keep growing beyond the point that the normal game's "hard" DCs have become relatively easy.

Well... as far as I have experienced, that is the normal progression in all versions in D&D.
5ed kind of flattened the ramp up, with its 'bounded accuracy' thing, but, for example, you would usually not set 15th+ level party vs an equal number of CR 1-3 monsters and expect it to be really challenging. By analogy, a 25th+ level party would not find an equal number of CR 11-13 monsters to be challenging... I believe.

... but it at least allows for the game to stay playable with a smaller amount of effort for a longer period of time.

Now, this is a persuasive argument.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=3021]heylel[/MENTION] Looking over it, I think for your purposes ("you're having fun, and want more of the same"), your set up will work well. The high-level spell slots (not spells) given to ranger and paladin basically only apply to the handful of ranger/paladin spells that can be boosted with higher level slots like the "arrow"-spells, smites, and conjure animals; basically it amounts to more damage.

I like some of the little touches you made to avoid things veering into absurdity. Like with the fighter's Indomitable – allowing 2 uses to grant an auto-save seems very apropos of an epic fighter.

Good luck finding monsters suitably challenging for your party!

 

[Zorku]

The concern about balancing combat at higher levels becomes less of an issue if you take a combat as warfare approach- it's up to the party to judge what they can handle that way, and you can just throw a messy variety their way.

Bounded accuracy doesn't actually make significantly lower CR monsters into reasonable threats. No number of wolves is going to balance against a solo level 20 character; the encounter will basically just be a swarm that is annoying and trivial or annoying and deadly, before accounting for aoe options, and more broadly this doesn't make for an interesting encounter anyway. If you keep the gap between CR and player levels to 10 or less then things still work fairly well (I'd say 15 for math reasons, but I can't stand trying to actually run combat with hordes that big.)

Now, monster variety in the MM constricts a bit after CR10 and then (if you don't think that a rainbow of dragons makes for a rainbow of variety,) again at CR15. This is going to be bad news at level 25. If you're handy with spreadsheets it's pretty simple to take existing versions of creatures and essentially make giant versions of them at several CR higher (DMG p273) and there's lots of mythology to draw from for creature names, but the verisimilitude of your world is going to take a hit if there are uber-naga that outclass ancient dragons and Tri-Hydras that can threaten the host of heaven. The PHB sets up the levels in tiers of lowly apprentice, city protectors, continent handlers, and then multiverse tenders, and the kinds of monsters that show up at whatever CR roughly reflect this. If you're going to double the level cap you've got to define another 4 tiers above the multiverse and decide on themes for them, but what's past the struggle between heaven and hell? What outclasses the unknown horrors that dwell in the darkness between stars?

You can probably avoid that problem by ignoring it for awhile, but I'm not sure that ignoring it for 20 levels is appropriate. At 40 the Tarrasque is at the low end of what you'd ever throw against the party (and I don't mean as a solo monster,) and what does something even look like in terms of abilities when it's 20CR above the Tarrasque? These questions aren't unanswerable by any means, but there's also little way for me to predict how you would answer them, any everything besides pure stats is predicated on those answers.