Researching spells from magic items

[SamuraiY]

This is an idea for a house rule I'm going to suggest to my DM. I would kinda like your opinions on changes, or if its just a bad idea.

A wizard could take a magic item and attempt to learn the spell used to make it, similar to learning a spell from a spellbook or scroll, but with a higher spellcraft DC. I'm thinking a DC of 20 or 25 + spell level. any suggestions?

 

[Clay_More]

Well, then there should also be included that you burn 1d8 or perhaps 1d10 charges from the item while getting the spell out of it. If there isn't enough charges left, the spellcaster tried to learn the mechanics of the spell, but ran out of charges before he could study the spell carefully enough.
Even though it sounds a bit odd that a wizard could learn a spell from an item, it isn't overpowering (since you can already learn spells from the much cheaper scrolls).

 

[Hashmalum]

Ah, reverse engineering! I well recall doing the same thing to Nintendo cartridges. I like the idea. Personally, I would suggest that the mage doing the work have the item creation feat necessary to create the item in question and make a Spellcraft DC of 25 + the spell level. I would also suggest that it take somewhat longer than working from a scroll.

You'll also need to decide what happens when the effects of the item don't directly match any existing spell; I would suggest adding 5 or so to the Spellcraft DC to learn an appropriate spell required to create the item (for example, to learn telekinesis from the ring of the ram).

You might also want to decide how much it should add to the price to create such an item to make it difficult to reverse engineer in such a fashion, as it is likely that at least some wizards will wish to jealously guard their knowledge and not part it with unless it profits them directly. And of course major and minor artifacts shouldn't be subject to reverse engineering at all, or at least not without a truly epic Spellcraft check.

 

[Clay_More]

I think you might want to vary the DC according to the item. Items which have the prerequisite spell are easier than items that have a constant bonus. It would be a DC 25+sl to learn Bull's Strength from a Belt of Giants Strength and a DC 20+sl to learn it from a potion of Bull's Strength or a Wand of Bull's Strength.

 

[V_Shane]

maybe a Deowmer that scatters any info the Wiz is trying to pull from it?

 

[SamuraiY]

Okay. Ignore the other thread with an identical message. like I said over there it was some sort of bug in the system or mistake on my part.

I also had an idea that maybe an identify or an analyze dweomer would allow you to comprehend the spell without the check, like read magic on scrolls.

 

[Khaalis]

Personally I dont think its a horrible idea, but I would restrict it to make it reflect the difficulty of the task.

Here is basically what I would do.


Reverse Engineering
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Arcana) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks, Any Craft Item feat, Must prepare spells from a spellbook, Ability to cast Identify
Benefit: The Wizard may study any magical item of a type that they are skilled in creating and divine the process used to create the item and thus the spell(s) used to create it. Once the spell is known, the caster can study that spell and then learn that spell as if studying it form a scroll or spellbook.
This process takes 1 day per 1,000gp market value of the item being reverse engineered plus one day per spell level of the spell being learned, and also requires the casting of an Identify spell each day. If the item is charged, each day 1 use worth of charges must be expended to study the spell's effect. Single use items (such as potions) are destroyed in this process. If the item is worn to activate, the Wizard must wear the item normally. At the end of the identification process, the Wizard must make a Spellcraft check (Base DC as below, plus spell level of the spell) to determine if they have gained the necessary insight to learn the new spell. If successful they may now scribe the spell into their spellbook as per the normal scribing rules.

Item Type .............DC+Spell Level
--------------------------
Armor....................25
Weapon................25
Potion...................15
Ring......................20
Rod.......................25
Staff......................25
Wand....................15
Wondrous Item.....20


Thoughts?

 

[gpetruc]

Maybe Staff DC 20, Ring DC 25 instead of vice versa, because a Staff is simply a bigger wand with more spells, and so simpler in concept than a use activated item such as a ring. Anyway this is only IMHO.

The rulings are good, but I don't know if it's worth a feat (you can simply seek for some scroll and have it with a easier DC). Maybe it should be a general rule (at least if your world is not low magic) that applies to everybody who match the prerequisites of the feat
(and also one could rule that susbtituting Analyze Dweomer for Identify gives a +5 bonus to the check).

 

[SamuraiY]

Ok how about this as the rules for it (plus a related feat)

A wizard can learn a spell from a magical item, similar to the way he can learn a new spell from a scroll. He can learn a spell from any type of magical item with the obvious exception of minor and major artifacts.
There are two steps to reverse engineering. First you must decipher the spell in the item with a spell craft DC depending on the type of magic item you are studying. You may retry this check, just as you can with scrolls. Studying requires one day for every 1,000 gp in the item’s market price. If you have the necessary feat to create the item you gain a +2 to your spellcraft check. If there is more than one spell in the item, you decipher the highest level one you made the check for. An analyze dweomer allows you to identify all the spells in the item without a check, and an identify spell allows you to decipher the lowest level spell in the item without a check. Once you have deciphered the spell in this manner you may copy it into your spellbook as normal. Whether or not the item is affected depends on the type of item: if the item does not have a limit to the number of times it can be used, it is not harmed; if it has a limited number of uses, one use is depleted. If your check to copy the spell fails, then the item is not affected no matter what type it is.

Item--------------DC + Spell Level

Armor-------------25
Weapon----------25
Potion-------------20
Ring---------------20
Rod----------------25
Staff---------------20
Wand-------------20
Wondrous Item-20


Improved Reverse Engineering
You are especially adept at deciphering spells from magical items
Prerequisites: Any Item creation Feat, Spell Mastery
Benefit: All Reverse Engineering decipher DCs are 20 + Spell level
Normal: The DC depends on the type of item you are attempting to decipher.
Special: This feat can be taken as a wizard bonus feat.

I think this feat might be a little weak. thoughts/improvements would be very welcome.

 

[skymage]

this is a very interesting idea the only problem i see is that it will never get used in a normal game.

to fix this i would either lower the amount of scrolls or make it so that some spells are custom spells of various mages. specifically the ones that are named like MELF's acid arrow, and say the only way for a caster to learn a rare spell is to find on an item that can use the spell or be a sorceror who doesn't learn from books, but this could lead to a lot of problems deciding which spells are rare in your campaign and which arn't, and it might make sorcerers too strong?

perhaps divide the spells into litteral schools of magic such as the red wizards and the mages of the arcane order. this way only certain spells can be found in the respective library. no prestige class would be requirerd to be trained at a school unless you want to work your way up in the school. should you find a spell from an opposing school you would keep it a sercret cause you would be hunted by the school you stole it from.

maybe i'm saying to much i like tend to over explain so i'll end it here and check back latter to answer any questions.