Resolving Two Triggers at the Same Time

[JohnnyO]

Is there any rule or explanation on the order in which triggered actions are resolved if they have the same trigger? This came up in our game last week, and we just flipped a coin to determine the correct order, but I'm wondering if we did it correctly.

The Situation:
1) A Bladesinger hits a Minotaur Charger with a melee basic attack and activates Unseen Hand, which has the following trigger:

Trigger: During your turn, you hit an enemy with a melee basic attack using a one-handed weapon while your other hand holds no weapon or shield.

However, the Minotaur Charger has a Trigger Action with the following text: Trigger: An enemy adjacent to the minotaur deals damage to the minotaur.

Since it appears that both triggers happen at the same time, I was wondering what the proper way to resolve them was. If the minotaur got to go first, he could have dealt damage, and potentially pushed the wizard around the board. If the Bladesinger resolves first, he pushes the minotaur out of range, so that he can no longer retaliate.

Based on our understanding of the rules, We resolved it as follows:

1) Bladesinger hits with MBA
2) Bladesinger deals damage with MBA
3) Bladesinger activates Unseen Hand or Minotaur activates Goring Rush (flip coin)
4) If minotaur wins, Unseen Hand still activates since its has Range 10.
5) If the bladesinger wins, the Minotaur cant retaliate, because he was pushed out of melee range

 

[Radiating Gnome]

Your solution worked. I don't know that there's a good rule out there for you, although as DM I usually err on the side that favors the players.

When I'm stuck trying to decide how to settle some sort of edge case, I try to keep in mind "what would be more fun" -- especially "more fun for the players". So, in your case, I would have favored the PC's triggered action before the Minotaur's but that's a completely arbitrary choice I've made, and there's no reason it's better than what you did.

-rg

 

[Spatula]

The order is undefined by the rules, assuming they are the same action type.

Although I am unsure of the order even with some differing action type combos... If the bladesinger trigger is a free or no action, and the minotaur's is an interrupt, I might let the minotaur's go first. But I'm not sure if the rules say anything about whether free trumps interrupt, or vice versa.

 

[Kantru]

These are good idea. However, I would consider using initiative order to resolve the conflct.

 

[Ryujin]

The Minotaur Charger's action is an immediate reaction. As such I would complete the attack, including the Unseen Hand. I would then resolve the Minotaur Charger's reaction, if for some reason it's still a valid action.

 

[fba827]

i vaguely recall that a game designer at one point was fielding an early question about how how to resolve some issue (i think it was regen and ongoing damage at the same time, or maybe it was vulnerability and something else). Anyway, the gist of that response was something like "if it happens at the same time, resolve it in order that favors the players"

 

[Ferghis]

i vaguely recall that a game designer at one point was fielding an early question about how how to resolve some issue (i think it was regen and ongoing damage at the same time, or maybe it was vulnerability and something else). Anyway, the gist of that response was something like "if it happens at the same time, resolve it in order that favors the players"

Any idea on the source? Something that I could use to try to google it?

 

[keterys]

Start of turn stuff happens in any order that the creature wants - it's not whatever's best for the players. Ie, you can regen before ongoing (or vice versa) as either.

Even the Immediate Reaction vs Free Action ruling isn't a slam dunk, though I'd cheerfully nod along to that decision - Free Actions aren't inherently faster than Reactions. They both happen after the triggering action resolves.

Just make a call that folks at the table can agree with, and try to be consistent. It'll come up a _lot_, with things like no action death bursts, etc.

 

[Fkewl]

To add to Ryujin's post,

These free/immediate actions do not occur at the same time

"Hit" and "Damage" are 2 different triggers

You will have Free/Imm Interrupts/Imm Reactions that trigger on either

If triggering on a hit,
Free and Imm Interrupts can invalidate whole the attack if suddenly out of range or changes the attack into a miss with a penalty to attacks
Imm Reactions, do not

If triggering on dmg,
Free and Imm Interrupts does not invalidate the hit, but can change dmg received after being resolved and might save you from death.
Imm Reactions, are resolved after the full dmg is taken, so if it takes you to 0hp, you cannot use the Imm Reaction.

So in this case Unseen hand, triggers on the hit and the Charge triggers on damage.

Resolve hit with unseen hand first then apply damage to the Minotaur, resolve Charge at the end.

 

[JohnnyO]

To add to Ryujin's post,

These free/immediate actions do not occur at the same time

"Hit" and "Damage" are 2 different triggers

You will have Free/Imm Interrupts that trigger on either

If triggering on a hit, can invalidate whole the attack
If triggering on dmg, does not invalidate the hit, but can change dmg received

So in this case Unseen hand, triggers on the hit and the Charge triggers on damage.

Resolve hit with unseen hand first then apply damage to the Minotaur, resolve Charge at the end.

That was my initial thought, but if Unseen Hand triggers between the hit and the damage, and the whole point of Unseen Hand is to push the enemy away, does that mean that the damage portion of the melee basic attack doesn't connect?