Restart From Last Save?

[Fifth Element]

Does anyone out there use an idea like "save points" in their P&P D&D game?

I'm going to be using "save points" in a game I'll run over the holidays. However, there are specific reasons why I'm doing so. In my regular games, I'd never consider it.

I'm converting the Myriador 3.5 conversion of Deathtrap Dungeon to 4E, and running it for my group (and my old DM who'll be visiting from Toronto) in one or two sessions over the holidays. I'm also going through my copy of Deathtrap Dungeon and adding back in stuff the module skipped over.

It's a one-shot deal and we're using pregen characters. The reasons I'm using save points are:

1. There is no continuity to worry about.

2. It's our first 4E game, and we want to try out the game as much as possible. So if things go to crap, I think it's better to just keep going rather than giving up or starting from the beginning and rehashing.

 

[mach1.9pants]

I think the main difference is with a PC game you are playing the exact same thing; give or take, some games mix it up a bit with each play through but not much. Re-doing the same thing is really dull. Whereas with a DnD game with a death, and by this I mean TPK, which is the equiv to character death in a SP game, we always start something almost entirely new...i.e. we go on to a new 'game': in a comp game analogy we dump Dead Space (I was getting bored of all those corridors anyway) and start playing Fallout 3!

With a single player dying then PC games do it in the same way. I played Left 4 Dead last night with 4 player co-op. When one of the 'PCs' died we rescued him later...he showed up as a 'rescue survivor'. Admittedly it was the exact same guy who got slotted a few minutes ago and in DnD that would only happen with a bit of magic instead of a new PC entire

 

[Mallus]

Or he is like me and simply does not play video games because it is IMPOSSIBLE to make it from beginning to end without dying.

Most games these days are designed that way, yes.

So I had to play for another 20 hours to get back to that point with a new character, but I won that battle and quickly figured out how to win the last battle without dying.

You played through the entire game again after dying near the end? You, sir, have the patience of a saint. If games didn't have save mechanics, I wouldn't play them (I'd get too bored w/all the backtracking/redoing).

 

[Umbran]

What is it about P&P games that causes this difference?

I suspect it is the expectation of the player.

I would expect that for most computer game players, the primary motivation is playing the game. The story behind the game, and the playing of the role, are secondary in comparison to the pushing of buttons and the working of strategies.

In a tabletop of live action game, the playing of the game is still there, but the playing of the role, and the development of the story, are likely much higher priorities. Except in some very specific circumstances, save points pretty much trash that.

In addition, your typical computer game is inflexible. If you don't get through its challenges, you are well and truly stuck. There's nothing else the program can do for you. The same is not typically true of P&P RPGs. In GNS terms - the computer game is so strongly "gamist" that the save mechanic makes sense as a feature for the player. P&P RPGS are more "narrativist", such that the mechanism would not make sense.

 

[Pbartender]

But in a Pen and Paper game, this idea just seems wrong. I died... There's no restarting the adventure from the last "save" point... You make a new guy, or you end up "failing" at the adventure and suffering the consequences.

Play more Paranoia.

 

[Treebore]

Most games these days are designed that way, yes.


You played through the entire game again after dying near the end? You, sir, have the patience of a saint. If games didn't have save mechanics, I wouldn't play them (I'd get too bored w/all the backtracking/redoing).

Actually I spent a day or two determined not to play the game ever again. Then I calmed down and decided to do it since I enjoyed just "getting there" well enough to do it again.

Then I played it again as Dark Side. Took me only 3 tries that time. Still, I preferred the Light side play.

 

[cwhs01]

I played a short scenario (not dnd) at a con once where the gimick was stolen from groundhog day, so we restarted the day whenever we were killed (by aliens, werewolfs, cops etc.) or after 24 hours.
It was actually a traveller scenario (which we didn't know until afterwards), where we were playing AI's caught in an interactive "game", devised by the companys marketing department.

It was actually kinda cool. And also a slightly silly game. I probably wouldn't recommend it for a campaign

 

[Hella_Tellah]

Play more Paranoia.

Following this advice is mandatory.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Crazy synchronicity, in my FFZ notes today I was just writing up how to translate the "Save Point" idea into PnP play. Basic points:

"Save Point" = Home Base: That inn your characters sleep at, or that temple where you can go to get raised by the friendly priest: these are "save points." In FFZ, you go here to switch party members, or heal your wounds, or otherwise be revitalized. In this way, you can say that "save points" already exist: as long as one person makes it out of the dungeon alive, the rest of the party can be resurrected.

Metagame: Save Points preserve continuity of characters: FFZ is a gloriously narrative game in most respects, so it is important to have characters who are basically "immune to death." Save points enable that.

But...they don't turn back the clock...: Unlike in a CRPG, FFZ's "save points" don't undo the last hour or so of gameplay you've done. Your characters are alive, and they have all the knoweldge that they gained since their last visit to this place. Likewise, the enemy that killed you may have gained knowledge about you: he can respond, change tactics, move away entirely, send assassins, or otherwise react to what you just did.

Verisimilitude: Exclusivity and High Magic: FFZ's "Save Points" have a role in the world. Most common people can't afford to bother with them (and have little use for them, since their lives aren't particularly dangerous). Thus, there isn't a problem with random bakers being effectively immortal.

Trump Cards: In order to keep assassination plots and the like relevant, there has to be a few things that bypass Save Points, though they can be unabashedly narrative in structure:
#1: Special "Death" effects that truly kill the victims; only people who are not linked to a Save Point can generate these effects (leaves a pool of dangerous assassins).
#2: Necromancy. Anything that animates the undead strips out your soul (Necromancers are creepy)
#3: Fate. When your time is up, it is up, and nothing can stop it.
#4: Choice. You can choose to sacrifice your life for a greater cause. You can't be raised after this.
#5: Special areas called "Jagd" that bypass this resurrection.

0 HP is KO, not Death: It's HARD to die in FFZ. You don't just die from hit point loss (though you may fail).

The Save Point can be Threatened: If your enemies break your crystal, you can't be raised. You need to make sure your Save Point is secure, and that usually means locating it far away from the enemy stronghold.

Most D&D games have fairly easy resurrection, especially at higher levels, so dealing with a "save point" isn't really different than dealing with a special auto-resurrection at a given location. It's not a dramatically different mechanic.

 

[El Mahdi]

I think it's as simple as: computer games in-world and story options are limited by programming - versus - PnP game options are virtually infinite. Because options other than resets can't be easily done, or done at all, in a video game, we accept it easily. Because other options can be done in a PnP game, we expect it.