Resurgence and timing

[Majoru Oakheart]

This should be fun.

So, a friend of mine and I started an arguement that seems to go on forever. He was DMing and had something like 10 sunbeams hit us at the same time from a trap(we are 20th level). Each one had a chance of blinding us, so almost the whole party failed at least one save(which, I think was his point).

So, the following round, we cast resugence and managed to make the save. I figured this would allow us to not be blinded anymore. He argued that we could make our save against ONE of the effects, but then the other 9 would have blinded us, so resurgence does nothing. I asked him what happens if I made all my other saves. He said it would work then. However, I can't remember how sunbeam works right now, but I believe the only save you make against it is against the blindness. So, I believe I stopped making saves after I was blind as I figured that I couldn't be blinded 10 times. After all, if you can't see, you really can't be blinded by a bright light. Also, any spell that makes you blind when you already are would fail.

At any rate, he wanted me to back up to the previous round and reroll all the other 9 saves since we didn't remember if I made them or passed them. I think he was bitter about his trap being negated by a 1st level spell (except for the damage, of course). I said that it would set a dangerous precident if we allowed resurgence to actually back up and do the whole round over again. He spent most of today arguing that he would never allow a 1st level spell to negate 500 finger of deaths. As he brought up a situation where you are hit by 500 finger of deaths at the EXACT same time (a trap that triggered them simultaneously or a twin spell or something similar). You fail the first save and die. Then someone casts Resurgence on you next round and you make your save. The spell has then negated all 500 of them.

I tried to explain to him that nothing in D&D happens simultaneously. That no matter what you still resolved spells one by one, so since someone would be dead when the other 499 finger of deaths hits you, they have no effect. He says that there is nothing in the rules that says things can't happen at the same time.

I also brought up Permanent spells like Blindness/Deafness. If someone casts 20 of them, does that mean you are blinded 20 times and need 20 heals to cure you? No. He doesn't see it that way, and since I mentioned it, he says that from now on you WILL need it in his game.

What do you all think about this?

 

[pbd]

Obviously the DM wants the characters blind for some reason, so any arguements may fall deaf ears...

The spell allows a reflex save for half damage and the same save negates the blindess, so (if played correctly) you should have had a save for each beam.

Logically, once blinded by the bright light, you wouldn'e be able to be blinded by it again. You need to be able to see the sunbeam for it to effect your eyes. This is different than the blindness spell, whcih doesn't effect the eyes per se. Since you can't really be blinded by more than one beam, it would follow that a single new save for the resurgence would remove the blindness.

 

[Infiniti2000]

What do you all think about this?

First of all, you should go find another DM. This DM, from what is just written in your post, seems to relish in DM vs. player conflict. He's not DMing, he's trying to beat the players. For one thing, the DMG is pretty clear as a guideline that you should have traps about CR 10. Assuming you have four PCs, that would be at least 40 sunbeam spells, which is so far about CR 10, it's incalculable.

Other than that, the resurgence should work just fine. Once you're blinded, you cannot be blinded again. However, you still should have rolled all 10 saves because you want to avoid some of the damage, too, right?

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Yes, but his way of thinking of it appears to be "ok, great, you are right that they had no effect while you were blinded, but now you MADE your save against the first one, so the rest can blind you now." Which appears, at least to me, to be a lot of work to reverse time and do half of the last round over again.

I think the DM ruled that the sunbeam spells were fire (despite it not saying so) and I had an energy immunity(fire) up at the time, so the only effect they had was to blind me. So, after I was blinded, I stopped making saves.

Either way, we spent about 30 minutes arguing about it today where he told me that he couldn't concieve of a possible way to have a 1st level spell negate an infinite number of spells. He sees it as negating all the other sunbursts because, since they all affected me at once, I was affected by multiple blindnesses and the save only negates one of them.

I believe he calculated the CR of the trap using the DMG as CR 20, which he said was appropriate for a 20th level game. Now that I think about it, they were sunbursts, not sunbeams. That's why they affected everyone. I actually don't remember the EXACT number of sunbursts, but he was bragging that he thought it was dumb that, according the the DMG he could use THAT many 8th level spells and only be considered CR 20. That's why he used it.

Then again, he prides himself on the idea that, since his game is a level 20 game, he intends to show all the players that it is MORE deadly when they are that powerful, not less.

 

[Ferret]

I makes sense that once one save is gone the others might still have worked, but then again you can't be over blinded. It's hard to adjudicate when not having to make anymore saves relise on failing a save you're undoing.... .

 

[Infiniti2000]

Sunburst is much more easily adjudicated. It's an instantaneous spell and therefore NOT subject to resurgence. So, don't even bother with the resurgence. However, it is most certainly not fire damage, so everyone should have taken 6d6 (rolled ten times) damage, save for each for half. Since it's instantaneous, you would only need 1 remove blindness spell per person affected.

I believe he calculated the CR of the trap using the DMG as CR 20, which he said was appropriate for a 20th level game. Now that I think about it, they were sunbursts, not sunbeams. That's why they affected everyone. I actually don't remember the EXACT number of sunbursts, but he was bragging that he thought it was dumb that, according the the DMG he could use THAT many 8th level spells and only be considered CR 20. That's why he used it.

Your DM is an idiot. A single sunburst trap would be CR 9. Two would be EL11, four EL13, eight EL 15, ten wouldn't even up it any further. It would need 32 for EL19, and I suppose another 20 or so for EL20. Unless you have greater spell immunity running, you're likely toast.

Then again, he prides himself on the idea that, since his game is a level 20 game, he intends to show all the players that it is MORE deadly when they are that powerful, not less.

Like I said, he's an idiot. He's clearly gone beyond the concept of it being a fun game. Shoot him and have someone more competent fill his spot. Unless, of course, you are all there just to be taught lessons.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Heh. Well, I'll give you he makes some strange decisions now and then.

So, Resurgence doesn't work against any instant spells? I haven't read the description in a short while. I guess that might solve a lot of the problem with his "500 finger of death spells" scenario. I think we assumed that the blindness from the spell was a lasting effect and therefore could be gotten rid of using it.

However, it still means that the same situation applies in certain other situations as well. Like, it was brought up, if you get hit by 20 ray of enfeeblements in the same round. Making your save against one because of Resurgence wouldn't really get rid of the other ones. Even though they don't stack, they overlap. Normally I don't keep track of how many rays are affecting me, just the highest penalty I have to my strength.

So, the question is, does Resurgence just get rid of the effect on you, or does it reverse time back to when you made the save and make the save again, making the rest of the things that happen in the round happen again. I think this is a little bit too complicated to keep track of for one spell.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I don't have the book with me at work, so I could be wrong, but I play a cleric in another game and I'm sure that resurgence is limited to ongoing effects, and the wording made it clear that it was not for instantaneous effects. Blindness from sunburst is instantaneous. Blindness from sunbeam is ongoing (has a limited duration).

Resurgence would allow you to eliminate a single spell effect on you. If you have multiple ongoing spells, then it would not eliminate them. So, for sunbeam, you would still be blind if you failed more than one save the first time around (and got a resurgence). You have multiple ongoing effects that do not stack and they overlap. For example, you would need to cast dispel magic on each one (or targeted on you and overcome each one). But, for sunburst, it's instantaneous and once blind, you cannot be made more blind. So, assuming resurgence worked on instantaneous effects in the last round (it doesn't, but hypothetically speaking), you would still only need the one, because you only have one blindness effect. Removing the one is all that is necessary -- there's no time reversal or any such nonsense.

 

[Ferret]

From the name the later feels most appropriate. But its just a feeling...

 

[reveal]

Resurgence from Complete Divine:

<snip>The target of resurgence can make a second attempt to save against an ongoing spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability, such as dominate person, a chaos beast's coporeal instability, or the sickening effect (but not the damage) from unholy blight.<snip>

You cannot use resurgence against sunburst because the duration of sunburst is instantaneous. It's not ongoing.

So the whole argument is moot, although I do agree with Infinti2000 about your DM's motives.