Retailer's Stance on PDF Deals

[gamersgambit]

Marty's right.

Thing is though, I've been an aspiring writer in the past and an aspiring game designer as well, though I've found my niche since and am happy with it. What I don't get is why on Earth a designer would WANT to see more PDF sales than real-book sales on a personal pride and achievement level. There's nothing (to me) that says "I've made it, I'm here, this is awesome" than a physical copy of my book that I wrote in front of me. If what you're selling is a PDF, you're making money, but without the visceral sense of achievement that only a physical object can supply.

Otherwise, you might as well be charging for people to read your ENWorld posts, if done prettily.

Give me something to promote your game with. Please. I want to promote your game, really I do.

One of the biggest markets I have that is unaddressed in terms of demand are things that D&D players will want to buy, once the D&D books and dice and minis are bought. I've a captive market of 100-200 D&D players that come to my store. When it isn't the third Tuesday of the month, lots of them will desultorily look around the store in the hopes that something cool will be there for them to buy. And it ain't. And 3rd-party "quintessential loser" D&D products aren't cutting it. Do something Wizards *isn't* that doesn't try to introduce new stuff rules-wise into the game. Ancillary products like I mentioned above (character folders, minis, marks, zone markers, markers of all sorts, dice/randomizers, tracking forms, color art packs with pics of characters, language/accent guides (do you know how many players try to play characters with accents that have no idea how to do so? If I had a book that contained medieval turns of phrase using the Irish way of speaking circularly, I could sell that). I don't know, I'm not a designer. Dragonfire Laser Crafts has some neat stuff but it isn't of a quality that my players want. Alea Tools has some neat stuff that players want but they have a lousy distribution model.

Best non-dice, non-minis, non-WotC products that sell in my store?
* Crystalline Counters (Three Sages Games)
* Gamemastery Combat Pad (Paizo)
* D&D Character FOLDER (not pre-printed character sheets, but a folder)
* Card Sleeves
* Map Packs and Tiles

There's a niche there. A BIG niche for things that people would love to have at their game tables. Something as silly as a book that people can put cool quotes in that they hear at the table. These are the things that can make you money and keep B&M stores in business. Take a look at the vast lines of things that Gale Force Nine makes for minis games and apply that to the much broader range of possibilities for a roleplaying game.

Find something for PCs to do in between "their turn" that isn't playing Sudoku or BSing with each other OOC while other characters are trying to take their turns and that doesn't disrupt the game and you will be able to make money. Alea Tools are cool for this because players love screwing around with magnetism.

Find something unique enough that a player can call their own or personalize that other people don't have or won't buy but some will--pricy items do this, but so do customizable things. Marks they can write their name on or that look cool...

These are the things I would love to sell. I actually have a product specifications document that I've a poor man's copyright on that I'd love to collaborate with someone capable of manufacturing plastic/metal thingies effectively that consists of ideas gathered from what my players/DMs want that isn't currently there. I don't want much for it, a tiny share in the profits and some recognition. If you're one of those folks, drop me a line.

 

[carmachu]

There is, at least, a second retailer response.

ICv2 - Jane Witt of The Keep on RPG PDFs

I don't know. I'd like to think that PDF purchasers that would not buy the book at a retail location, wouldn't buy it anyways. And those that would, do, regardless of PDF. I also like to support my FLGS as much as is reasonable.

Between this one and marcus king, they just keep confirming my conviction to never ever support FLAGS ever again, since I made that decision years ago.

 

[carmachu]

* Arguments about the lack of need for LGSes are often viewed from the point of view of individuals who post on online forums like this one: they're skewed from an observer bias perspective. Put another way, it's probably a no-brainer to presume that the percentage of people who never walked into an FLGS and don't think they are key to the growth of the hobby and started online is higher amongst folks who post on an online forum like ENWorld (or even Wizards) than it is in real life. Put a third way, if Wizards' estimates of its playerbase of 6 million, divided in half to 3 million(because they are probably exaggerating) are accurate, if all these folks posted on ENWorld and Wizards' boards the systems would crash under the volume rapidly.

Your view is way too skewed and bias in and of itself. Further, you're literally just making numbers up there. Many actually got starts without a FLAGS and by introduction from a friend outside a store.

Some of us that view FLAGS as unuseful anymore are actually a direct result of dealing with one(or more) and have more than a bit of disgust at them.

 

[Gareman]

Some of us that view FLAGS as unuseful anymore are actually a direct result of dealing with one(or more) and have more than a bit of disgust at them.

There are as many game store owner perspectives on this as there are game stores. "FLGS" is not Wal-Mart or Amazon, it's usually someone who loves the hobby and has sunk their life savings into supporting it, and possibly making a meager living at it in the process. You certainly don't owe them anything and they certainly need to earn your business. That you had a bad experience at one has little bearing on the thousands of others.

I think retailers play a dangerous game by dismissing online forums like this. I personally think you represent a tiny fraction of gamers, but the most important fraction from a store owner perspective: the influencers, the alpha gamers, those who shape the future of gaming.

Good, diversified game stores will survive, even without role-playing games. Will role-playing games survive without game stores? Will it become the war games model, where only gray haired old men play them at conventions? If you haven't noticed, things are not going well for the RPG world and you could almost track the decline with the decline in game stores. Coincidence? To quote Clint Eastwoord, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."

 

[carmachu]

There are as many game store owner perspectives on this as there are game stores. "FLGS" is not Wal-Mart or Amazon, it's usually someone who loves the hobby and has sunk their life savings into supporting it, and possibly making a meager living at it in the process. You certainly don't owe them anything and they certainly need to earn your business. That you had a bad experience at one has little bearing on the thousands of others.

Oh please. At one? Its every one in my area, easily 60 miles or so in every direction. I, frankly, got tired of being d#$%ed around by them.

When I was in my 20's I was a bit advocated to support them. But my experiences in the last 10 years of so how shown, frankly, their pretty irrelevant in my experience. Whether its RPG or Wargames.

I think retailers play a dangerous game by dismissing online forums like this. I personally think you represent a tiny fraction of gamers, but the most important fraction from a store owner perspective: the influencers, the alpha gamers, those who shape the future of gaming.

I think there are more like me than you think. Its how our game club got started, because basically one store decided to jerk us around so....20ish adults rented their own space and now have no worries.

Good, diversified game stores will survive, even without role-playing games. Will role-playing games survive without game stores? Will it become the war games model, where only gray haired old men play them at conventions? If you haven't noticed, things are not going well for the RPG world and you could almost track the decline with the decline in game stores. Coincidence? To quote Clint Eastwoord, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."

And whose fault is that exactly? The decline? If you think wargames are played by stuffy old greybeards only at conventions, you're as out of touch as many FLAGS.

It may not be the grand old 80's population fo RPGer's, but from a customer/consumer POV, things havent been better. And I'm not talking just price, in fact I'm not talking about price at all.

There comes a point, where enough is enough.

 

[Cadfan]

If you think wargames are played by stuffy old greybeards only at conventions, you're as out of touch as many FLAGS.

He's probably referring to the cardboard counter wargamers, not the miniature wargamers. If you see two people leaning over a massive table using tweezers to move stacks of cardboard chits, that's probably the group he means.

In the world of gaming, the wargamers really are having some problems these days. The classic wargames are extremely difficult to learn, extremely time consuming, and do a poor job of appealing to new players. The modern wargames that are designed to appeal to experienced players are often small print runs from small publishers that sell only a handful of copies, which require significant experience to truly learn, but which also are so difficult to find opponents and time to play that few people ever get the chance to experience them to their fullest. And the newer products designed to appeal to new players are often thought of by older players as not being "real" wargames, or being somehow adulterated with eurogame influences. As a group, they tend to be quite concerned with the future of their hobby.

They'll probably putter on forever, though. Their rate of adding new blood is low, but it isn't zero, and the incredible investment in time and energy they often require tends to nurture lifestyle gamers who never leave the hobby. Plus, many of the wargame publishers are so small that they're ok with the incredibly small profits available.

But... yes, the stereotype of the graybeard wargamer at conventions is not an inaccurate one. When your game of choice takes 20 hours to complete and there are only a dozen people in your entire region of the country who know the rules, you tend to gather and play at conventions.

Editted to add: They're probably close to dead to the world of local gaming stories. Go through the list- small numbers of players, many very small game publishers, low cost products made primarily of paper and cardboard, a product where each gaming group only actually needs one copy of the game, games mostly far too complex for demo rules, and a product which only appeals to lifestyle players who often have high information and who often demand very specific products. It seems like its practically made for direct to customer internet retail, and practically the bane of someone who has to buy the product, put it on a shelf, and hope someone comes in the door looking to purchase.

 

[Furluge]

Oh please. At one? Its every one in my area, easily 60 miles or so in every direction. I, frankly, got tired of being d#$%ed around by them.

When I was in my 20's I was a bit advocated to support them. But my experiences in the last 10 years of so how shown, frankly, their pretty irrelevant in my experience. Whether its RPG or Wargames.

There's two kinds of retailer in any economy. Those who can adapt and deal with industry changes or dead men walking. Guess which kind Marcus King and Jane Witt are?

I've encountered the same thing you're talking about with the crummy FLGS. FLGS stores where they would charge me $150 for a $80 airbrush. (Yes, RC car hobby parts are even more out of whack than RPG hobby stuff.) I've been to stores that were rude to us when we hosted games, forbade us from using our laptops in the hope that we'd use their lame cybercafe they set up in some dingy back room, and places that would ignore us and play on the internet while setting up a Rockband next to the D&D table. Of these stores one still survives, one is out of business, and the other's manager was sacked and things have steadily improved.

Of course I've also been to gaming stores where the owner is nice and converses with us, has a tidy store, a actually nice cyber-cafe and games area, seperated from the table top stuff, and keeps a wonderful supply of snacks, food, sodas, tea, etc. They host events like "paint night" with supplied paints, and the owner was cool enough to show us the new D&D minis that had come in the day before release even though he couldn't sell us any yet. I've been to one or two stores like this. They're good. They get it.

I've been to one or two stores of the good variety and many more of the dead man walking variety. The dead man walking variety are closing up shop and going away. I like the people, I feel bad for them sometimes, but there's really nothing to be done. They seam to think they can cover their ears, scream, "Support your local FLGS!", and pretend the internet doesn't exist, that Amazon isn't selling identical books for cheaper, often with free shipping and no sales tax, and continue to do business like they did in the 70's and 80's. They can't. It's not going to work no matter how much they wish it would. The best thing you can do is let them know how you feel. Assuming they listen, that's good. Though chances are they won't. And then they die. That's just how it works. It's the same in every market from RPG books to automobiles to labor.

So let's all raise our glass in toast to the memory of Marcus King of Titan Games and Jane Witt of The Keep, soon to be departed from the world of business. Remember them fondly and try not to write smart ass phrases on their tombstones.

 

[Dire Bare]

Now that is how a game store lost my patronage, as they moved to a larger space, advertising what would be more playing space and display space, only to fill most of the store up with bulky, wide-display board game items and exiling the role-playing game books to a library-style shelf display that only showed spines and crammed them into a fractional portion of their store. Prior to this moment and move, this was a store that had a fairly equal display of all their games, be it board, role-playing, collectible card game, or what not, yet after the move I felt as if they did not want my business anymore.

Thus, they lost my business and that was their fault, not that of PDFs or an online store. While I prefer to be a patron of a local game store, specifically a friendly one, it is not something I owe them, but something that they have to earn from me.

When I first moved to Boise, back around 1996 or so, Dark Horse Comics and Games earned my loyalty, through the moves, including the one out of town a bit, and until the store transitioned away from being a store front place. The owner was a solid, gregarious guy who loved talking about the industry and offered nice member serves and other things that earned loyalty. He also got that PDFs were PDFs and books were books, or seemed to, but he also knew that it was up to him to lose customers, nobody else.

Are you still in Boise? Or Klamath? Because you just described the only remaining LGS in Boise, All About Games!

Nice, clean store with friendly staff (except that one kid . . .). Except that the majority of the RPGS are squashed spine out on one shelf. And while the store does run player events for D&D (I think), they rarely seem to take advantage of retailer promotions like Free RPG Day. They hosed me on a promo deal for the new Talisman board game by doing, well, nothing! I want to give them money, and I enjoy drooling over all the board and miniature games, but I'm an RPG player and purchaser primarily and Amazon treats so much nicer . . . .

 

[Dire Bare]

Oh please. At one? Its every one in my area, easily 60 miles or so in every direction. I, frankly, got tired of being d#$%ed around by them.

When I was in my 20's I was a bit advocated to support them. But my experiences in the last 10 years of so how shown, frankly, their pretty irrelevant in my experience. Whether its RPG or Wargames.

I think there are more like me than you think. Its how our game club got started, because basically one store decided to jerk us around so....20ish adults rented their own space and now have no worries.

I too have had more negative experiences than positive with LGSs, but I think the message is, "Don't give up hope!" If a new store opens in your area, or if you hear an existing store is under new management, do yourself a favor and give the store a chance. Chances are, it'll be another fail, but you might luck out and find a worthwhile retail experience. But then again, I'm a glass half-full kinda guy.

And whose fault is that exactly? The decline? If you think wargames are played by stuffy old greybeards only at conventions, you're as out of touch as many FLAGS.

It may not be the grand old 80's population fo RPGer's, but from a customer/consumer POV, things havent been better. And I'm not talking just price, in fact I'm not talking about price at all.

There comes a point, where enough is enough.

There's the "new wave" of wargames that are easy to learn and easy to play (often with lots of plastic included), and then there are "real wargames" that are of poor production quality, overly complex rules, and long play times with a curmugdeonly fanbase that puts RPG graybeards to shame. Lifestyle gamers who predate Gygax and Arneson!!! I'm sure I'm being unfair to this branch of the hobby, but the stereotype exists for a reason.

 

[isgaard]

Hello,

Can you advise on any stores in the Boise area?
I have to go to the HP headquarters for a training next month, and I have only found "all about games" as an RPG store in Boise...

Any other that I can visit?

Thank you!