Bigassgeek
First Post
Paranoid? Hardly. Concerned, maybe. Calling him paranoid is erroneous and mean-spirited.
Retailer's Stance on PDF Deals
Paranoid? Hardly. Concerned, maybe. Calling him paranoid is erroneous and mean-spirited.
El Mahdi
Muad'Dib of the Anauroch
Yeah, can't say I completely understand this.
As far as I can tell, Paizo and RPGNow have only offered deals on pdf's, not on hardcopies of books. The pdf's were already significantly cheaper than hardcopy books to begin with (except of course for the now extinct WotC 4E pdfs
). Reducing pdf prices further really shouldn't have any effect on brick-and-mortar retailers. The sales are simply to show good will to pdf customers and to do something to retain pdf customers after the blow pdf sellers were dealt by WotC. The purchases taking place now are probably almost exclusively for products that people were already planning on buying in pdf. Not to mention that most of the products being bought right now are quite likely only available as pdf's (small $1-$3 pdf products). I have to agree that what's hurting brick-and-mortar sales isn't pdf sales, but discounted online sales of hardcopy books.Is this retailer working on the premise that he believes hardcopy books should be priced the same as pdf's?
Times are changing. If a brick-and-mortar wants to keep up sales, they are going to have to provide the newer services gamers want in order to get them into their stores (so they'll hopefully purchase products). For example, but not limited to: comfortable and relaxing areas for gaming, in store support for said gaming, internet access, print on demand services, etc.
I wonder if this is just a case of sour grapes? Or wanting a piece of the pie with this sudden surge in sales?
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Wulf Ratbane
Adventurer
As mean spirited as flogging him with a buggy whip.
If only I knew a place to buy buggy whips.
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
I can't help but think that somebody at WotC* is cackling in mad delight at the discord they're creating.
...
*=not the whole company, just somebody.
mach1.9pants
Hero
My reply is 'When WotC finally totally lose it (it's coming) and stop selling paper copies of their games because people lend/borrow/scan/copy them then we will give you our books free/discounted"
What a bizarre attitude, this guy and WotC will get on well.
"I mean, if the PDF is free, why would anyone ever need the printed book". That. Is. Just. A. WEIRD. Attitude.... I can't get my head around it at all. PDFs have always been cheaper but people still buy paper copies. Because we like books, we are bibliophiles (for the most part) we enjoy reading and gaming (if not so much prepping or organising) with paper copies. I dunno what percentage of gamers use PDFs exclusively, but it is not going to be huge. But lots of us use both or just paper.
What a bizarre attitude, this guy and WotC will get on well.
"I mean, if the PDF is free, why would anyone ever need the printed book". That. Is. Just. A. WEIRD. Attitude.... I can't get my head around it at all. PDFs have always been cheaper but people still buy paper copies. Because we like books, we are bibliophiles (for the most part) we enjoy reading and gaming (if not so much prepping or organising) with paper copies. I dunno what percentage of gamers use PDFs exclusively, but it is not going to be huge. But lots of us use both or just paper.
roguerouge
First Post
Paizo's response is a bit more reasoned. See Vic Wertz in the thread on their forums:
paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / paizo.com / Website Feedback / PDF sales effect on gaming store owners
paizo.com - Paizo / Messageboards / paizo.com / Website Feedback / PDF sales effect on gaming store owners
Let's face it, the Dead Tree Version of a work is now a Premium Version of said work. The paper and ink are now additional luxuries with additional cost.
Similarly, Compact Discs and Vinyl Records as Premium Versions of works. I don't bother to buy CDs of music I can buy online anymore. I can make my own CDs or use USB media on most playing devices now.
If your business model is based on selling a particular form of media based on the value of the Content and the content has moved to cheaper media then your business model needs to change. There is still a market for print media, but it is not the be-all, end-all of content delivery. You've got to weigh the demands based on the number of people who want the content in their hands rather than the number of people who merely want the content at their fingertips.
Yes, it does suck when publishers turn around and undercut your inventory in the middle of a sales cycle without warning. That's poor form and loses the publisher valuable good will - and rightly so. It is also a very bitter experience when a publisher uses your store front to market their game and then decides to undercut you once they've achieved adequate exposure.
Come to think of it - it also sucks when the publisher opens up a store in your own area to take all the business in say, Magic: the Gathering or Warhammer 40K that you cultivated for years away from you too.
Publishers are often total dicks to retailers once they feel like they've got sufficient exposure to no longer worry about how alienating brick-and-mortor store fronts impacts their bottom line. That's why Gaming Stores need to transform into Service-Centric models when it comes to products that can be found on Amazon, Target shelves, or in digital form online. They also need to focus more on products that people want to have in their hands when they walk out the door - puzzles, board games, miniatures, impulse buys, etc.
- Marty Lund
Similarly, Compact Discs and Vinyl Records as Premium Versions of works. I don't bother to buy CDs of music I can buy online anymore. I can make my own CDs or use USB media on most playing devices now.
If your business model is based on selling a particular form of media based on the value of the Content and the content has moved to cheaper media then your business model needs to change. There is still a market for print media, but it is not the be-all, end-all of content delivery. You've got to weigh the demands based on the number of people who want the content in their hands rather than the number of people who merely want the content at their fingertips.
Yes, it does suck when publishers turn around and undercut your inventory in the middle of a sales cycle without warning. That's poor form and loses the publisher valuable good will - and rightly so. It is also a very bitter experience when a publisher uses your store front to market their game and then decides to undercut you once they've achieved adequate exposure.
Come to think of it - it also sucks when the publisher opens up a store in your own area to take all the business in say, Magic: the Gathering or Warhammer 40K that you cultivated for years away from you too.
Publishers are often total dicks to retailers once they feel like they've got sufficient exposure to no longer worry about how alienating brick-and-mortor store fronts impacts their bottom line. That's why Gaming Stores need to transform into Service-Centric models when it comes to products that can be found on Amazon, Target shelves, or in digital form online. They also need to focus more on products that people want to have in their hands when they walk out the door - puzzles, board games, miniatures, impulse buys, etc.
- Marty Lund
Obryn
Hero
Now, that is a much better response. Reasonable, professional, and well-thought-out.
I suppose there's an argument that could be made, that the other response was on a personal blog of sorts, but when a personal blogs is public, and when it contains a public response to a business-related inquiry... Well, I'd call it unprofessional at best.
-O
Badwe
First Post
By and large I’ve been loathe to dip my toe into this series of events that seems to have ignited a nerdrage so great, I’ve not seen the likes of it outside a world of warcraft class forum. I cannot help but notice that the same people who are convinced that WotC have utterly devalued their customers needs and wants to make a buck have no qualms about saving 20% on amazon to the expense of a set of retailers who sweat bullets trying to create an actual environment to facilitate all this gaming. You want to play hardball with your dollars, but anyone trying to improve margins inside a company is some kind of vile suited lawyer out to destroy gaming.
Get real, there is no morality to business, only dollars and cents. If you can’t be bothered to pay +/- 20% of a price for the accoutrements of a product, then the business must find a way to profit when all that matters is the price point. Absolutely giving away PDFs will not end the sale of all hardcovers, and no amount of PDF retraction will stop piracy, but they do have a tangible, if impossible to accurately measure, effect. WotC or the FLGS or GR might not know for sure, but they have a better idea than you or I, and anyone with a job in this economy should be able to appreciate the desire to continue to exist and be profitable.
I can’t believe there even exists a gaming market anymore, because if I were an executive looking at the demographics of the business I would give up on the whole industry. There simply aren’t enough dollars to go around and the expectations of what those dollars acquire continue to grow. That being said, I am eternally grateful it still does and would like to discuss THOSE GAMES instead of the industry that surrounds it. If you are truly unable to pay the difference in cost, may I humbly suggest you budget the money you give to your ISP for RPG products.
Get real, there is no morality to business, only dollars and cents. If you can’t be bothered to pay +/- 20% of a price for the accoutrements of a product, then the business must find a way to profit when all that matters is the price point. Absolutely giving away PDFs will not end the sale of all hardcovers, and no amount of PDF retraction will stop piracy, but they do have a tangible, if impossible to accurately measure, effect. WotC or the FLGS or GR might not know for sure, but they have a better idea than you or I, and anyone with a job in this economy should be able to appreciate the desire to continue to exist and be profitable.
I can’t believe there even exists a gaming market anymore, because if I were an executive looking at the demographics of the business I would give up on the whole industry. There simply aren’t enough dollars to go around and the expectations of what those dollars acquire continue to grow. That being said, I am eternally grateful it still does and would like to discuss THOSE GAMES instead of the industry that surrounds it. If you are truly unable to pay the difference in cost, may I humbly suggest you budget the money you give to your ISP for RPG products.
What readers should understand, with regards to the tone of publisher responses (including my own) is that there is a history there that the public isn't aware of.
I make a mention of it in my response. In short, Mr. King is a Known Quantity, and has been (along with other retailers) hammering some pretty flat-out WRONG points of view on various industry fora.
So, take that as additional seasoning for this particular stew.
I make a mention of it in my response. In short, Mr. King is a Known Quantity, and has been (along with other retailers) hammering some pretty flat-out WRONG points of view on various industry fora.
So, take that as additional seasoning for this particular stew.
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