Retraining Feats and skill ranks

[Herzog]

I have a (homebrew) Feat that lets you select two skills and treat them as class skills from the moment you take the feat.

One of the players is taking the feat to allow himself to qualify for a PrC (allowing him to buy enough ranks this level instead of having to spend to levels to get there. He'll be one skillpoint short if he has to buy it as a cross-class skill...)

The skill in question is a class skill for the PrC, so once he qualifies and takes the PrC he no longer has benefits from the Feat.
He therefore plans to retrain the feat as soon as he has taken the first level of the PrC.

The question is: what happens to the bought ranks?
Do they revert to cross-class skillpoints, making him no longer qualify for the PrC?

I looked at the retraining rules, and they seem to imply you do not change skillranks once they are bought.

Is this correct?
(Note: the same situation could occur when you switch from a racial substitution level to a 'normal' level and loose access to a class skill added to your class list by the substitution level. However, the issue of loosing class skills isn't addressed, only the situation for adding class skills...)

 

[irdeggman]

Try the section on Class Level rebuilding (pg 197) since that seems to come the closest to what yo are trying to do.

Basically your home brewed feat allows the character to have a class benefit.

If reallocating your character's class levels disqualifies him for a prestige class in which he already has one or more levels, he loses the benefits of any class features or other special abilities granted by that prestige class. He retains the hit points gained from advancing in that class, as well as any improvements to BAB and base save bonuses that those levels provided.

Basically as I understand it you must be able to demonstrate that you could meet the prerequisites at the time the class was entered after you retrainded for something and you must be able to meet the prerequisites (at the level obtained) fot new things (like swapping out a feat).

 

[HoboGod]

Well, if that feat was a requirement for him to gain that PrC at that level, it would be no different than retraining Dodge after obtaining Mobility. I certainly wouldn't allow it. However, depending on how far he dipped into other classes/PrC since taking this PrC or how willing he might be to dip into other classes/PrC now, there might be a way for him to get rid of that feat in a few levels.

For example, there's an imaginary PrC called Widget Master that requires 8 ranks in knowledge (the planes). However, a fighter only wants one level in Widget Master for the craft widget feature granted at first level. He obtains this feat before 6th level and when at 13th level, he would be able to have enough cross-class skills to take Widget Master, he could change that feat over two levels. Level 14, replace Widget Master 1 with a level in fighter and retake Widget Master 1 at this current level. Level 15, it is now legal to replace the feat which gave him Widget Master at 6th.

 

[irdeggman]

As I understand the retraining rules - basically you are "going back in time" and redoing the character 1 level at a time. Some rebuilds are "more complex" than other but in general the same guidelines exist.

You handle it one level at a time - at the level you change things you must be able to do what you are trying to change (e.g., meet feat prerequisites, skill ranks, etc.) and so on for follow on levels.

A lot of people tend to build characters all at once instead of building a level at a time and miss meeting requirements along the way.

 

[Herzog]

basically you are "going back in time" and redoing the character 1 level at a time.

Not as I understand them.

What you are doing is replacing existing abilities with new abilities.

Skill retraining allows you to move 4 ranks in ANY skill to a skill that is a class skill for ANY of your current classes. It doesn't matter if you originally bought the source skill as class or cross class ranks.
You could take a level rogue (for the skillpoints) at first level, fill up the rogue class skills, then take other classes and move the bought ranks over to your new class skills at 4 ranks per level.

The endresult is, technically, an illegal character.

With feats it's a bit more difficult: if you retrain a feat, the new feat must be legal at both your current level and the level you took the old feat. (making Able Learner an illegal feat to retrain to, since you can take it only at first level)

@HoboGod:
The feat is not a requirement, the skill ranks are.

Same question in other words: If you retrain something (racial substitution level etc) and that results in a class skill becoming a cross-class skill for a certain level, what happens to your skill ranks in that skill?

 

[HoboGod]

@HoboGod:
The feat is not a requirement, the skill ranks are.

If the feat granted the ranks, the feat is part of the requirement at that level. Substitution is all about level-by-level changing. It's the kind of thing where you need to keep your reciept to get a refund.

Same question in other words: If you retrain something (racial substitution level etc) and that results in a class skill becoming a cross-class skill for a certain level, what happens to your skill ranks in that skill?

Substitution is a jedi mind trick, these aren't the feats you took *waves hand*. So if he never took that feat, there must be some kind of "mistake" on his character sheet for why a cross-class skill was treated as a class skill when putting all those points in it. No harm, no foul, erase them and recalculate them as cross-class. If that makes an illegal character, however, he can't make the substitution.

 

[irdeggman]

Not as I understand them.

What you are doing is replacing existing abilities with new abilities.

Skill retraining allows you to move 4 ranks in ANY skill to a skill that is a class skill for ANY of your current classes. It doesn't matter if you originally bought the source skill as class or cross class ranks.
You could take a level rogue (for the skillpoints) at first level, fill up the rogue class skills, then take other classes and move the bought ranks over to your new class skills at 4 ranks per level.

The endresult is, technically, an illegal character.

Probably not since the max ranks allowed is still legal.

Same question in other words: If you retrain something (racial substitution level etc) and that results in a class skill becoming a cross-class skill for a certain level, what happens to your skill ranks in that skill?

Racial substitution levels are pretty much laid clearly.

Look at the example of dwarf fighter - you handle these at a level basis and at the level you take it you must meet all requirements. 4 ranks at those levels, well that is how interpret the example.

 

[Jhaelen]

The endresult is, technically, an illegal character.

Ah, I don't think so. IIRC, the retraining rules explicitly don't allow any changes that would result in an illegal character.

Something it _does_ allow, e.g. is to trade away prerequisite feats for prestige classes but you will lose all of the prestige class' abilities, so it's generally a bad idea.

 

[Herzog]

IIRC, the retraining rules explicitly don't allow any changes that would result in an illegal character.

That's what the FAQ says:

Can you use the retraining rules from PH2 to remake
your character in such a way that would not normally be
achievable through level-to-level progression?
No. When you are using the retraining rules, your
character’s end result must be one that you could have created
without using the retraining rules.

However, that directly contradicts this text from the PHII:​

After your character goes through the retraining or rebuilding

process, you might notice that he doesn’t quite match
the specs of a similar character built up to the same level
by the normal method. Maybe his skill points don’t add up
quite right, or his hit points are off a bit from the expected
value. But the small variations that crop up in this process
don’t signifi cantly impact play balance, and writing rules to
eliminate them would complicate the process without really​

​

​

improving the quality of your game.​

 

[WalrusThief]

The homebrew feat you have is called Educated, i think. I don't remember where from though...

In any case, I think it would convert them back to cross-class rank or it would simply be impossible to do. I'd definitely houserule it -not- to work though.

A slightly more iffy one is Precocious Apprentice (CArc pg 181) as a means of early entry into Mystic Theurge. I know there is debate over whether or not it works in that aspect, but assume that it does. Would you be able to retrain that?