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Retrofuturism: Sandalpunk and Candlepunk
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7037217" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>What I was trying to say that because I like this stuff, and care about Sci-Fi generally, and think it matters how labels are used, I want to apply the labels correctly. For example, in researching to answer your question, I came across a website that proposed to define "Castlepunk" by example. And this website sited Connie Willis' "The Doomsday Book" as an example of "Castlepunk". Now, that's just wrong: "-punk" is not a generic suffix that simply indicates "historical fiction about". Connie Willis's "The Doomsday" book is not a book about hypothetical medieval technology, and it's not a book about alienation, ennui, acting out, nonconformity and rebellion. It has none of the tropes you'd associate with the Punk movement or punk genre. It is in fact a straight forward time travel story about living amongst medieval villagers, and it's about the middle ages as it actually was and not how it might have been. To call it "Castlepunk" is to obfuscate rather than clarify.</p><p></p><p>Now, I might sort of accept as an example, Mark Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in King Author's Court" as being closer to being "Castlepunk" than Connie Willis's "The Doomsday Book", but the very fact that I'm applying a term from the 1970's to a book written in 1889 ought to again tell you that the term is here so loosely applied as to be disinformative rather than informative. But at least Twain's story is an angst filled story of rebellion set in an alternative past where a time traveler brings all the technology of the late 19th century back to the court of King Author, and what happens as a result. But again, I think it's better to think of this as a time travel story rather than being "punk", as there was really no chance of revolvers, torpedoes, Gatling guns, electricity and telegraph service being invented in the 6th century AD because there were no precursors to such technology and no one even imagining them at the time.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't want to fight either, but likewise I want us to discover true and useful answers. As I said before, I can I think imagine a "Sandalpunk" story, but "Castlepunk" and what it would mean is far vaguer and I don't think I've ever encountered an example. Possible near misses are things like the aforementioned "Connecticut Yankee in King Author's Court" (wrong sort of technological speculation), Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose" (no obvious science fiction elements), and the first "Assassin's Creed" video game (more of a fantasy, no real technological focus). But not only can I not think of a good example to point you at, I'm not convinced I can imagine an example that is fully distinct from other genre's such as the neighboring Renaissance era "Clockpunk".</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And that's just precisely what I'm trying to do. If we can define it well, then it is as thing. But if we can't define it, then perhaps it is simply a sort of Cyberpunk with a certain aesthetic. I don't like defining things by incidentals though, and in particular I don't want to define "Formicapunk" as Cyberpunk where as an incidental trope of the setting, the writer was unable to imagine the CD or email or ecommerce, and so had high tech data tapes or fax machines in the role of data storage or document communication. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Me too.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, for one, a castlepunk setting would not have magic, as it would seem ridiculous to suggest that in the middle ages magic was actually real. I've heard "Dungeonpunk" used to describe settings where advances in the knowledge of magic is leading to some sort of industrial revolution. For "Dungeonpunk" I can provide many references, from the parody of Cyberpunk in Pratchett's "Going Postal" to the Firefly inspired "Tales of the Ketty Jay" by Chris Wooding. But, for example, "Tales of the Ketty Jay" is definitely not "Castlepunk", since the setting is more Edwardian. But it's not actually Steampunk either, since magic replaces technology to the point of producing elements (like antigravity) that are far advanced of what is possible now, making the setting a mixture of 19th century and far future technology. For that matter, see also D&D's Eberron setting which features electrical trains that run on magically conjured lightning.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7037217, member: 4937"] What I was trying to say that because I like this stuff, and care about Sci-Fi generally, and think it matters how labels are used, I want to apply the labels correctly. For example, in researching to answer your question, I came across a website that proposed to define "Castlepunk" by example. And this website sited Connie Willis' "The Doomsday Book" as an example of "Castlepunk". Now, that's just wrong: "-punk" is not a generic suffix that simply indicates "historical fiction about". Connie Willis's "The Doomsday" book is not a book about hypothetical medieval technology, and it's not a book about alienation, ennui, acting out, nonconformity and rebellion. It has none of the tropes you'd associate with the Punk movement or punk genre. It is in fact a straight forward time travel story about living amongst medieval villagers, and it's about the middle ages as it actually was and not how it might have been. To call it "Castlepunk" is to obfuscate rather than clarify. Now, I might sort of accept as an example, Mark Twain's "A Connecticut Yankee in King Author's Court" as being closer to being "Castlepunk" than Connie Willis's "The Doomsday Book", but the very fact that I'm applying a term from the 1970's to a book written in 1889 ought to again tell you that the term is here so loosely applied as to be disinformative rather than informative. But at least Twain's story is an angst filled story of rebellion set in an alternative past where a time traveler brings all the technology of the late 19th century back to the court of King Author, and what happens as a result. But again, I think it's better to think of this as a time travel story rather than being "punk", as there was really no chance of revolvers, torpedoes, Gatling guns, electricity and telegraph service being invented in the 6th century AD because there were no precursors to such technology and no one even imagining them at the time. I don't want to fight either, but likewise I want us to discover true and useful answers. As I said before, I can I think imagine a "Sandalpunk" story, but "Castlepunk" and what it would mean is far vaguer and I don't think I've ever encountered an example. Possible near misses are things like the aforementioned "Connecticut Yankee in King Author's Court" (wrong sort of technological speculation), Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose" (no obvious science fiction elements), and the first "Assassin's Creed" video game (more of a fantasy, no real technological focus). But not only can I not think of a good example to point you at, I'm not convinced I can imagine an example that is fully distinct from other genre's such as the neighboring Renaissance era "Clockpunk". And that's just precisely what I'm trying to do. If we can define it well, then it is as thing. But if we can't define it, then perhaps it is simply a sort of Cyberpunk with a certain aesthetic. I don't like defining things by incidentals though, and in particular I don't want to define "Formicapunk" as Cyberpunk where as an incidental trope of the setting, the writer was unable to imagine the CD or email or ecommerce, and so had high tech data tapes or fax machines in the role of data storage or document communication. Me too. Well, for one, a castlepunk setting would not have magic, as it would seem ridiculous to suggest that in the middle ages magic was actually real. I've heard "Dungeonpunk" used to describe settings where advances in the knowledge of magic is leading to some sort of industrial revolution. For "Dungeonpunk" I can provide many references, from the parody of Cyberpunk in Pratchett's "Going Postal" to the Firefly inspired "Tales of the Ketty Jay" by Chris Wooding. But, for example, "Tales of the Ketty Jay" is definitely not "Castlepunk", since the setting is more Edwardian. But it's not actually Steampunk either, since magic replaces technology to the point of producing elements (like antigravity) that are far advanced of what is possible now, making the setting a mixture of 19th century and far future technology. For that matter, see also D&D's Eberron setting which features electrical trains that run on magically conjured lightning. [/QUOTE]
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