Retrofuturism: Sandalpunk and Candlepunk

Igwilly

First Post
So, recently, I’ve become quite interested in retrofuturism. I’m DMing a campaign about time-travel, and the subject seems fascinating. It’s amazing how many variants are there: Steampunk, Dieselpunk, Formicapunk, even Stonepunk…
However, there are two of them that, even after a long Google search, I still don’t know what they’re about.

  1. Sandalpunk. I know the technical meaning, being retrofuturism related to classic times, Ancient Rome and Greece. Some people differentiate between bronzepunk and ironpunk. But still, the research hasn’t formed a cohesive picture in my mind. What kind of inventions and anachronisms does a sandalpunk world have? How much “advanced” does this style of retrofuturism get (like, what can they achieve)? And how does it look (and feel) like?
  2. Candlepunk or Castlepunk. Other than the names, I know only that it’s supposed to be the retrofuturism of medieval times. But that doesn’t tell me much about the genre itself. So, what is candlepunk/castlepunk? (Questions made in the previous item are also valid here).
Any help is appreciated. :)
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
[*]Sandalpunk. I know the technical meaning, being retrofuturism related to classic times, Ancient Rome and Greece. Some people differentiate between bronzepunk and ironpunk. But still, the research hasn’t formed a cohesive picture in my mind. What kind of inventions and anachronisms does a sandalpunk world have? How much “advanced” does this style of retrofuturism get (like, what can they achieve)? And how does it look (and feel) like?
Back in the early 90s I think it was, I remember reading a trilogy like that. Let's see...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanicus_trilogy

That goes into the technology and such a bit.
 



doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Castlepunk is, in my experience, based on the scientific acheivements of the Medieval Alchemists, especially Muslim Alchemists and their collegues in Al Andulus, but also figures such as Paracelsus.(sp?)

Harry Potter also has a lot of Castlepunk elements, even though it is set in the 1980's.
 

Igwilly

First Post
Things are getting clearer now. Thank you for your help.

Though to be honest, I have a feeling they just started adding "punk" to different ages after a point in an attempt to fill out a grid.

As someone with OCD, it is terribly satisfying to know that, as of now, all of our past has an associated retrofuturist genre.
 

thefrickinpope

First Post
Though to be honest, I have a feeling they just started adding "punk" to different ages after a point in an attempt to fill out a grid.

Isn't the punk part there to denote themes of class struggle? I feel like a lot of -punk settings miss out on this.

[*]Sandalpunk. I know the technical meaning, being retrofuturism related to classic times, Ancient Rome and Greece. Some people differentiate between bronzepunk and ironpunk. But still, the research hasn’t formed a cohesive picture in my mind. What kind of inventions and anachronisms does a sandalpunk world have? How much “advanced” does this style of retrofuturism get (like, what can they achieve)? And how does it look (and feel) like?

I have a feeling this type would probably have a lot of the actual or supposed invention of various Greek philosophers/engineers be much more prominent in the world. The aeolipile actually finding industrial usage, the massive stone saw mills at Baalbek, Archimedes' solar-powered laser thing, Archimedes Claw, the giant siege engines that Alexander used to conquer Sidon, the antikythera mechanism, really anything by Hero of Alexandria etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria#Inventions
 
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Celebrim

Legend
Sandalpunk: I know the technical meaning, being retrofuturism related to classic times, Ancient Rome and Greece. Some people differentiate between bronzepunk and ironpunk. But still, the research hasn’t formed a cohesive picture in my mind. What kind of inventions and anachronisms does a sandalpunk world have? How much “advanced” does this style of retrofuturism get (like, what can they achieve)? And how does it look (and feel) like?

I haven't read any of this sort, but presumably, Sandalpunk is what results if the engineers of Rhodes spread their inventions widely. You end up with complex clockwork devices up to and including simple analog computers and animatronics, knowledge of calculus, warfare that includes napalm, primitive steam engines, wind and water power sparking an industrial revolution, and really every other invention known to the ancient Greeks but never capitalized on.

Candlepunk or Castlepunk. Other than the names, I know only that it’s supposed to be the retrofuturism of medieval times. But that doesn’t tell me much about the genre itself. So, what is candlepunk/castlepunk? (Questions made in the previous item are also valid here).

I've got nothing here, because the late middles ages and early renaissance were some of the greatest technological and social revolutions in history. Unlike the Hellenistic period, the late middle ages were a time when technology was becoming democratized and the full implications of things like waterwheels or pulleys where being (finally) fully explored and capitalized on. Gunpowder was being turned into cannons. Water was being pumped to allow deep shaft mining. Those astronomical clocks that the Greeks invented 1600 years before and promptly forgot about were finally being built and not forgotten. Candlepunk IMO is what happened in real life in Cistercian monasteries where they invented the modern world. It wasn't a time when technological promise like the Antikythera mechanism or Babbage's engine were present, but not really capitalized on. The closest I can get is a world where this promise isn't smashed by the Black Death and famines of the 14th century, leading to a very brief break in the explosive growth of knowledge and engineering. But exactly what they knew that they weren't capitalizing on, I'm not sure. I suppose you could create it by reversing the trend, and tell a story where the Catholic church really cracked down hard on the Cistercian engineers and the Jesuit astronomers in an attempt to squash technological change, resulting in class conflict between those that wanted to preserve the old order and those that wanted to overthrow it.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
One you didn't mention that I have read multiple examples of is 'Clockpunk', which is what you get if the stuff Leonardo DiVinci imagined in his note books was worked on until it became viable inventions.

Also, it should be noted that many of these genres are not necessarily set in an alternative past. For example, 'Clockpunk' includes any setting missing all forms of motive power that don't rely on animal effort, including various versions of post-apocalyptic dystopias where for whatever reason all fossil fuels are gone and people seem to have forgotten how to make electricity (or for some reason can't).

Some examples would 'Souls in the Great Machine' by Sean McMullen and Paolo Bacigalupi's 'The Windup Girl'.

Personally, I find 'Clockpunk' unconvincing as a science fiction as almost any sort of harnessing of energy is going to be more powerful than mere human effort, and complex machines depending on human effort are unlikely to be more useful than simply unencumbered bodies. Almost every example I've seen offends me as an engineer however well written it may be otherwise.

I've also never encountered the concept of 'Formicapunk' until you mentioned it. I did some digging, and mostly I can find the concept lambasted by people as a complete failure to understand the genera's principles conventions.

'Punk' arose out of extrapolations of what would happen if technology was largely unchanged except a particular area advanced independently to some logical extreme. Initially this Cyberpunk 'forecasting' what the near future implications of a fully digital society might be - a society that generally seemed stuck in the 1970's or 1980's social crises but also had this advanced computer technology.

The other versions arose by looking back into the past and imagine what might happen if certain inventions which were not fully realized at the time had been made viable and socially important, causing a society to be based around those inventions while critically other inventions were not discovered. For example, 'Steampunk' involves assuming inventions like Babbage's Engine are fully realized and mechanical clockwork computers become a big thing, but society does not go on to immediately invent electricity or the internal combustion engine to replace steam engines or mechanical clockworks. The genera doesn't refer to just getting stuck in an 'era' like 'the Victorian Age' or 'the 1970's'. It's about extrapolating technology and imagining what the world might be like if that technology exists, usually in the context of the social upheaval associated with new and rapidly improving technology. Originally 'Future Shock' - an idea very current in the 1970's - was very much part of the concept.
 
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Igwilly

First Post
I didn't mention the others because I already have a pretty good idea about them.
About Formicapunk; I saw only some people criticizing the term. It appears to be its own thing. It's even in TV Tropes. I liked it and it fits the retrofuturism genre and agenda.
 

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