Reviewing, Revising, and Finalizing Prehistoric Animals and Dinosaur Ecology

[hamishspence]

I was basically taking it from the Serpent Kingdoms ceratosaur. I might add another feat. Powerful Charge and Improved Toughness came from MMIII- and the format was to match MMIII monsters.

The reason for long reach- when 45 ft theropod is in running posture- its head out and its tail out- then its snout should end roughly 15 ft in front of a 15 ft circular base- assuming it is placed in such a way that head and tail reach an equal distance either side.

For T. rex- Sue, Samson, and Stan are all on the large side- and T.rex is believed to stop growing in its teens- Sue's estimated age at death was 28.

 

[hamishspence]

Allosaurus

I agree on Allosaurus fragilis (Average specimen) being large though.

Allosaurus fragilis- average adult size- 28 ft long
Allosaurus fragilis- maximum normal adult size- 33 ft long

Allosaurus amplexus- sometimes called Epanterius, sometimes called a giant specimen of Allosaurus fragilis, is the only form of Allosaurus that might possibly qualify- at 39-40 ft long.

The point I was making- is that it's not out of the norm, to give theropods reach as if they were humanoids of the same size.

They may not have long arms with a weapon held in them, but they do have long bodies, held horizontally- extending their reach compared to your normal Huge quadruped creature.

The MM2 3.0 Allosaurus actually had a 10x10 ft Space but 15 ft reach, as did the D20 Modern T. rex.

Upgrading the Space to the normal one for Huge creatures, but leaving the Reach where it is- helps expand Huge Size a little, allowing most of the big theropods (excepting Spinosaurus) to fit into the size their weight would suggest is right for them.

(weight estimates are always iffy, but there was a news article that suggested that most weights need to be revised downward- so it is highly unlikely that there are any theropods weighing around 16 tons- minimum for Gargantuan)

Concerning Spinosaurus- three specimens are known-

the old destroyed one- estimated 5 ft skull, nose to tail length 46 ft.
the new one discovered by Dal Sasso- 6 ft skull (based on comparisons)- and body length estimated between 52 and 59 ft
and another recently discovered subadult specimen- 5 ft skull, 46 ft long.

While these are all based on rather scanty material- they do make it clear that it was one big animal.

 

[Cleon]

I was basically taking it from the Serpent Kingdoms ceratosaur. I might add another feat. Powerful Charge and Improved Toughness came from MMIII- and the format was to match MMIII monsters.

I haven't got either of those products, although I've flicked through them a few times in passing. I vaguely remember seeing the Ceratosaurus in Serpent Kingdoms, and I think it had a Stegosaurus too.

But don't mind me, I'm just biased in favour of using SRD feats, since it's easier for everyone else to know what they do, so I'd have just given it a few more points of Con and a Powerful Charge (Ex) Special Attack and used the two vacant slots for something else.

The reason for long reach- when theropod is in runing posture- its head out and its tail out- then its snout should end roughly 15 ft in front of a 15 ft circular base- assuming it is placed it reach an equal distance either size.

For T. rex- Sue, Samson, and Stan are all on the large side- and T.rex is believed to stop growing in its teens- Sue's estimated age at death was 28.

Yes, I can see were you're coming from there, it's giving theropods with the same basic bauplan different reaches (short & tall) just because one's a bit longer than the other that I don't much care for. I'd rather just make the one with the greater reach Gargantuan and have done with it.

Speaking about reach, since theropods' arm reach is much shorter than their jaw reach I did consider giving them a Tall reach with their bite attack and a Short reach with their claw attacks (assuming it has any). e.g. a Large Theropod would have Space/reach: 10 ft/5 ft (10 ft. with bite).

However, in the end I dropped the idea since all the "official" examples had Short reach. May decide to change that in my versions though.

I'd also considered adding a kick and/or tail-slap attack to many theropods, since they were certainly equipped to make them, considering their clawed feet and flexible tails, but again few examples published in RPG books have kick attacks (basically just the Dromaeosaurs), and I can't recall any OGL theropods with a tail-slap attack.

 

[hamishspence]

MMIII "fleshraker dinosaur" has a tail attack and is described as a dromaeosaur-type (but then, it also has poison)

Also, in 4th ed, the T. rex analog- fang titan drake in 4E MM2- has a tail attack.

The reason I prefer long reach Huge- is that there is precedent (MM2 Allosaurus- 3.5 updated version)-

and that Short Reach Gargantuan (20 ft space, 15 ft reach), seems a bit on the large side- basically- it assumes the creature is around 50 ft long.

Spinosaurus is Long Reach Gargantuan (20 ft space, 20 ft reach) in the 3.5 update to MM2.

This works well for a 60 ft creature (the upper limit of length estimates)

But doing all the big theropods as Long reach Huge (15 ft space, 15 ft reach- at least with bite) seems to work well with the 45 ft length of most of the biggest theropods.

Plus- weight is a bit of a deciding factor- a 6.5 ton dinosaur just is a bit underweight for gargantuan.

At least for me.

My preferred Hit Dice number for T. rex is 20- it has a lot of precedent- the D&D Expert Handbook version has 20 Hit Dice, the D20 modern version has 20 Hit Dice, and I'm betting the AD&D 2nd ed version had 20 Hit Dice as well- it has legacy value.

To fill out the size list:

Medium- up to 15 ft long
Large (5 ft reach) around 20 ft long
Large (10 ft reach) around 30 ft long
Huge (10 ft reach) around 35 ft long
Huge (15 ft reach) around 45 ft long
Gargantuan (15 ft reach) around 50 ft long
Gargantuan (20 ft reach) around 60 ft long

For an example of a creature that would fit into Gargantuan Short Reach far better than T. rex- Shantungosaurus or Lambeosaurus laticaudus: both are in the 50 ft long- 16 odd tons in weight- so I think they are much better candidates.

 

[hamishspence]

Base size advancing slower than actual size.

One possible source of these kind of size debates, is that the base size for WoTC creatures, advances more slowly than the actual height or length of the creature:

Normal minimum sizes (height, or length nose to base of tail):
Medium: 4 ft
Large: 8 ft
Huge: 16 ft
Gargantuan: 32 ft
Colossal: 64 ft

But base size advances:
Medium- 5 ft
Large- 10 ft
Huge- 15 ft
Gargantuan- 20 ft
Colossal- 30 ft

This results in creatures at the high-end dwarfing the base given to them.

The Huge Eldritch Giant in one of the miniatures sets, is a dramatic example of this- despite being supposed to be 25 ft tall- roughly equivalent to a 6 ft 3 inch man, it is on a 15 ft base- and looks horribly cramped.

http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/mg/wotdq

On the other hand, the actual mini may be, relative to a "six foot" mini, a little bigger than the 25 ft height given for it.

Still, the point stands.

If they followed the same geometric formula, doubling every time, it would be:
Medium 5 ft base
Large 10 ft base
Huge 20 ft base
Gargantuan 40 ft base
Colossal 80 ft base

Also- how big does a creature look, next to a "man-sized" creature in its suggested size class?

When one uses the mid-range heights for each category:

Medium- 6 ft
Large- 12 ft
Huge- 24 ft
Gargantuan- 48 ft
Colossal- 96 ft

Then, next to a 48 ft tall Gargantuan humanoid- a 46 ft long, 16 ft tall T. rex (13 ft tall at the hip) looks pretty puny.

 

[Cleon]

MMIII "fleshraker dinosaur" has a tail attack and is described as a dromaeosaur-type (but then, it also has poison)

Also, in 4th ed, the T. rex analog- fang titan drake in 4E MM2- has a tail attack.

Well I'd consider both of those Fantasy Dinosaurs so they aren't really relevant. Now I quite like fantasy versions of theropod dinosaurs, but they're not really germane to this thread.

The reason I prefer long reach Huge- is that there is precedent (MM2 Allosaurus- 3.5 updated version)

I have a couple of problems with that approach. Firstly, it's a holdover from the 3.0 edition of D&D. In the original 3rd edition Monster Manual both Tyrannosaurus and Megaraptor were Huge Tall creatures too (10 [FONT=&quot]×[/FONT]10 space, 15 foot reach). When they updated to 3.5 they changed them both to short-reach creatures, and dropped Megaraptor down to Large.

Making Tyrannosaurus or Allosaurus the same space/reach as a 16-32 foot tall giant doesn't jibe very well with me, at least for a version based on more modern reconstructions (I have no objection to a 3.0 edition Tall Tyrannosaurus as a towering tail-dragger straight out of a pulp novel or b&w film).

If the Tyrannosaurus and Allosaurus were Huge Long creature (10 [FONT=&quot]×[/FONT]20 space, 10 foot reach) under 3.0 rules they would work out about 40 feet long under the Space plus twice Reach rule-of-thumb (20+10+10), which seems a perfectly good fit.

and that Short Reach Gargantuan (20 ft space, 15 ft reach), seems a bit on the large side- basically- it assumes the creature is around 50 ft long.

Spinosaurus is Long Reach Gargantuan (20 ft space, 20 ft reach) in the 3.5 update to MM2.

This works well for a 60 ft creature (the upper limit of length estimates)

But doing all the big theropods as Long reach Huge (15 ft space, 15 ft reach- at least with bite) seems to work well with the 45 ft length of most of the biggest theropods.

Plus- weight is a bit of a deciding factor- a 6.5 ton dinosaur just is a bit underweight for gargantuan.

At least for me.

Yes, well I tend to consider those weight limits more are guidelines. There are a fair few creatures that break them. For example, the SRD lion is Large sized and listed as weighing 330-550 pounds for the larger males. If, say, an average lion weighs 350 pounds that's 70% of the minimum standard weight limit of a Large creature. A Gargantuan beast with the same 70% mass would be 22400 pounds, which is pretty much spot on the upper weight estimates for the largest theropods - except for Spinosaurus aegypticus, of course.

I imagine Theropod dinosaurs were pretty lightweight but extremely strong, they did have weight saving adaptations involving air-sacs and hollowed bones after all, so I consider a Gargantuan short-reached Tyrannosaurus quite acceptable. Besides, the 3.5 edition SRD Tyrannosaurus advances to Gargantuan size, and I didn't want to change it. Although I draw the line at the 3.0 and d20 Modern version which advances to Colossal, that's as crazy as the SRD tiger growing to Huge size!

Besides, I'm happy to allow for a 50 foot long carnosaur. Even if we don't have any reliable fossil evidence they grew that big, it's not that much longer than the largest known non-Spinosaur, and I consider a bit of exaggeration quite forgivable in a fantasy RPG like D&D.

And remember, I'm not arguing that all of the "supersize" carnosaurs should be Gargantuan, only exceptionally big outliers. E.g. the vast majority of adult Giganotosaurus would be Huge, but very rare individuals have advanced enough extra Hit Dice to become Gargantuan.

My preferred Hit Dice number for T. rex is 20- it has a lot of precedent- the D&D Expert Handbook version has 20 Hit Dice, the D20 modern version has 20 Hit Dice, and I'm betting the AD&D 2nd ed version had 20 Hit Dice as well- it has legacy value.

Afraid not, the D&D Tyrannosaurus had 18 Hit Dice in both 1st and 2nd edition AD&D, so if anything the D&D SRD's 18 HD has 'Legacy Value'.

To fill out the size list:

Medium- up to 15 ft long
Large (5 ft reach) around 20 ft long
Large (10 ft reach) around 30 ft long
Huge (10 ft reach) around 35 ft long
Huge (15 ft reach) around 45 ft long
Gargantuan (15 ft reach) around 50 ft long
Gargantuan (20 ft reach) around 60 ft long

I still don't care for switching between long and short reach for different sized animals.

Firstly, they're build in the same proportions, so I'd prefer them to have the same reach.

Secondly, it raises a problem with Advancement, especially with theropods that have a wide range of sizes. Wouldn't you'd be having thing like Advancement: 7-10 HD (Large short); 8-14 (Large long); 15-12 (Huge short)?

That just seems cumbersome to me.

For an example of a creature that would fit into Gargantuan Short Reach far better than T. rex- Shantungosaurus or Lambeosaurus laticaudus: both are in the 50 ft long- 16 odd tons in weight- so I think they are much better candidates.

Yes, the largest hadrosaur species would certainly be Gargantuan in 3E D&D terms as "average adults". That's not really what I'm shooting for with theropods, were I fancy having particularly big specimens reaching that size after a lot of HD Advancement.

 

[hamishspence]

Size

So, Huge for normal sized specimens of:

T. rex
Carcharodontosaurus
Epanterias (Allosaurus amplexus)
Giganotosaurus

etc, and Gargantuan for advanced versions? That would be more workable.

Maybe reserve the Tall category for ones with an unusual stance, like Therizinosaurus.

The main reason for splitting the two sizes was for ones that, while both being, say, 30 ft or less and well under 2 tonnes in weight,

was that I see a 20 ft 1100 pound dinosaur, as being small enough, to need a different Reach, from a 30 ft 2000 pound dinosaur.

I think Allosaurus fragilis (normal specimen) should be Large Long Reach, rather than Huge Long Reach, as MM2 3.5 errata stats it out as.

It may be odd for 3.5 to do some theropod bipeds as Long Reach, but its an interesting way of handling it.

Given that the 10 ton estimates are tending to be revised downward to more like 8 tons or less, even for the largest T. rex,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/dinosaurs/4884881/Tyrannosaurus-Rex-was-a-lean-mean-hunter.html

I figured reintroducing Long Reach as per MM2, made more sense- and maybe not having them advance out of their size categories.

Unless it seems essential.

My version:
Austrolovenator- 10 ft space, 5 ft reach
Allosaurus fragilis- 10 ft space, 10 ft reach
Saurophagnax- 15 ft space, 10 ft reach
Tyrannosaurus rex- 15 ft space, 15 ft reach
Spinosaurus- 20 ft space, 20 ft reach

Most theropods aren't going to cross the size line anyway-
a 39 ft adult T.rex and a 45 ft outsized adult T.rex are both going to be Huge 15 ft reach- better for the smaller ones to have a very slightly excessive reach, than for the big ones to be vastly underweight and under-reach for their size.

 

[Cleon]

This is a list of the major theropod clades- I may have left off a few of the clades of smallest theropods:

Coelophysoidea-
Gojirasaurus

Ceratosauria-
Deltadromeus
Ceratosauridae- Ceratosaurus
Abelisauridae- Rajasaurus
Carnotaurini- Carnotaurus

Dilophosauridae-
Dilophosaurus

Tetanurae:
Megalosauroidea
Megalosauridae- Torvosaurus
Spinosauridae- Spinosaurus

Carnosauria
Sinraptoridae- Yangchuanosaurus magnus
Allosauridae- Allosaurus amplexus
Carcharodontosauria
Giganotosaurinae- Giganotosaurus
Neovenatoridae-
Chilantaisaurus
Megaraptora- Aerosteon

Coelurosauria
Tyrannosauroidea- Tyrannosaurus
Compsognathidae- Sinocalliopteryx
Ornithomimosauria- Deinocheirus
Maniraptora
Oviraptoridae- Gigantoraptor
Therizinosauridae- Therizinosaurus
Dromaeosauridae- Utahraptor
Troodontidae- Troodon

Most of these have already been statted out by somebody.

That looks like it covers everything important.

I'm not sure what's the point of statting as many different theropods as we've got in the index. In game-mechanical terms there is often very little to distinguish between different genera or even families of dinosaur - a 30 foot long Allosaurus fragilis would probably be identical to a 30 foot long Acrocanthosaurus atokensis as far as its D&D stats go, or nearly so. We could probably boil it down to a few representative types of theropod, something like:

Standard Carnosaurs (e.g. Allosaurus) - largish, fairly fast, slashing bite, medium-sized claws. Includes other Allosauridae up to the size of Giganotosaurus. We could probably lump Ceratosaurs in here as far as their stats go.
Gracile Carnosaurs (e.g. Dilophosaurus) - slim, fast, smallish head, medium-small claws.
Clawed Carnosaurs (e.g. Baryonyx, Megaraptor) - Carnivorous theropods with unusually large arms & claws, may be piscovores, not necessarily closely related to other Clawed Carnosaurs.
'Velociraptors' (e.g. Deinonychus) - fast & agile, well armed with claws, talons & teeth.
Gracile Velociraptors (e.g. Troodon) - slimmer and faster than above, but not as strong.
Tyrannosaurs (e.g. Tyrannosaurus) - large & strong, bigger brains, powerful crushing & tearing bite, tiny claws.
Gracile Tyrannosaurs (e.g. Albertosaurus) - faster than the above, with less powerful jaws.
Abelisaurs (e.g. Abelisaurus) - slow but powerful, short skull may have allowed for a pit-bull like wrestling with larger prey animals, tiny arms.
Therizinosaurs (e.g. Therizinosaurus) - bizarre barrel-bodied theropods with huge claws. Probably herbivores.
Ornithomimids (e.g. Ornithomimus) - fast, with long 3-clawed arms but a negligible peck. Maybe omnivores.
Oviraptors (e.g. Oviraptor) - small, fast, medium claws, beaked. Maybe omnivores.

Then you just need stats for each size category, and if you want a Majungasaurus you simply use a "10 HD Large Abelisaurus".

I think that about covers all the theropod bodyplans, except for a couple of the bizarre ones like Avimimus or Incisivosaurus, which would probably need statting up separately - assuming we consider its worthwhile, since neither represent a threat to adventurers, although they may represent a meal...

Deinocheirus is also strange enough it deserves its own stats, and we can always add some hypothetical traits to create odd 'sports' such as venomous Coelophysids, chameleon-skinned Velociraptors and the like.

 

[hamishspence]

now this is a pretty fair summary of major groups needed

I have a couple of problems with that approach. Firstly, it's a holdover from the 3.0 edition of D&D. In the original 3rd edition Monster Manual both Tyrannosaurus and Megaraptor were Huge Tall creatures too (10 [FONT=&quot]×[/FONT]10 space, 15 foot reach). When they updated to 3.5 they changed them both to short-reach creatures, and dropped Megaraptor down to Large.

Technically, Megaraptor wasn't dropped to Large (and Deinonychus to Medium) until the 3.5 errata to the Monster Manual- the print copy of 3.5 rulebook leaves them as Huge and Large.

Making Tyrannosaurus or Allosaurus the same space/reach as a 16-32 foot tall giant doesn't jibe very well with me, at least for a version based on more modern reconstructions (I have no objection to a 3.0 edition Tall Tyrannosaurus as a towering tail-dragger straight out of a pulp novel or b&w film).

Actually- that's the kind I would have done with Short Reach- with its body held nearly upright- its head can't reach very far forward.

Whereas with body held horizontally- the jaws are a long way forward of the feet.

Concerning largest members of each general group:

I might place Deltadromeus as the point where Gracile Carnosaur tops out- its long and lean- 44 ft long but only 3.5 tons in weight- (these are just estimates though- based on fragmentary material- the holotype is smaller.)

Gojirasaurus and Dilophosaurus work well for smaller ones- they are of similar size and build.

Clawed carnosaurs should probably be split into Spinosaur-type and Neovenator type- with the recent work on the Neovenatorid clade- that includes Megaraptor.

Irritator works as the smaller spinosaur, Spinosaurus itself as the biggest- with Suchiomimus and Baryonyx mid-way between them.

The Neovenatorids, by contrast, are big, fast carnosaurs with unusually long arms and very big claws- ranging from Fukuiraptor- the smallest- to Megaraptor midway in size, to Chilantaisaurus- the largest- estimated size 11.5 metres long and 3.5 tons.

Ceratosaurus is actually somewhat atypical of ceratosaurs- most are either slim (Elaphrosaurus, Deltadromeus, Noasaurus) or chunky with miniscule arms (Carnotaurus) So it fits well with the non-gracile carnosaurs.

While there is some debate on how the larger, shorter-armed allosauroids attacked, there was also a lot of work done on them- specifically Acrocanthosaurus.

To sum up, it was concluded that they either grabbed their prey with arms, and held it close to their body for easy biting- Or, they bit, held prey with jaws, and raked repeatedly with their arms, since their arms are strong but not very mobile.

Either way- the Standard Carnosaur type should have both a bite attack, and claw attacks. Though possibly, their claws only came into play in a grapple.

Special note- depite being tyrannosauroids, the early ones, especially Dryptosaurus, had quite long arms and big claws- might fit better into "generic carnosaur" or even "clawed carnosaur" than either type of tyrannosaur.

 

[hamishspence]

Possible groupings

Generic Carnosaur-
Smallest- Monolophosaurus- Large (17 ft long, 1500 pounds)
Largest- Giganotosaurus- Huge (41 ft long, more than 6.5 tons)

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Giganotosaurus

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Giganotosaurus

Notice thse articles are identical to the wikipedia article in every way except one- instead of "surpassed T-rex by nearly a meter" it is "surpassed T-rex by half a ton"- which suggests someone has been editing.

Clawed Carnosaur-
Smallest- Fukuiraptor- Medium (14 ft long, 175 kilos)
Largest- Chilantaisaurus- Huge (36 ft long, 2.5 tonnes)

These are a couple of the links on the subject of Neovenatorids:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/l496325vp2x32617/

http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/of-allosaurs-and-megalosaurs/

Tyrannosaur-
Smallest- Raptorex (9 ft long, 150 pounds)
Largest- Tyrannosaurus (42 ft long, 7 tons)

http://www.fieldmuseum.org/sue/about_vital.asp

http://palaeoblog.blogspot.com/2006/04/new-biggest-t-rex-skull.html

http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_articles/raptorex_trex_ancestor_weighed_much_man

These are the first few that spring to mind.

Also- an interesting thing is, that lots of different groups each came in short and long armed forms.

Tyrannosauroids, allosauroids, ceratosaurs, and even dromaeosaurs (one group of dromaeosaurs has very short limbs- the family Unenlagiinae- of which one of the largest is the 16 ft Austroraptor.)

which can be problematic when deciding how many Clawed/Short Armed groups there should be.

EDIT: Also- I've managed to track down the article concerning weights (for theropods and sauropods) being revised downward.

And provided links (and a few corrections to earlier data) for how I am getting the sizes listed.

http://blog.everythingdinosaur.co.uk/blog/_archives/2009/6/22/4230640.html