D&D 2E Revised and rebalanced dragons for AD&D 2e

In the spirit of Celebrims thread "1e-Revised and rebalanced dragons for 1e ad&d" I have created a revision for dragons in ad&d 2e, one that I hope fixes many of the problems with the original 2e dragon rules.

Table 1: Dragons!
HD
Size
Move Rate
THAC0
AC
MR
Bite
Claw
Wing
Tail
Special Attacks1
Special Defenses
1 +1​
T
4"/8" C
20
10
0%
1d6
1d3
1d2
1d4
Breath Weapon
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Poison Resistance
2 +4​
S
8"/16" C
19
9
5%
1d8+1
1d4+1
1d3+1
1d6+1
Breath Weapon
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Poison Resistance
3 +6​
S
8"/16" C
18
8
5%
1d8+1
1d4+1
1d3+1
1d6+1
Breath Weapon
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Poison Resistance
4 +12​
M
12"/24" C
17
7
10%
1d10+2
1d6+2
1d4+2
1d8+2
Breath Weapon, Constrict (T), Knockdown (T), Snatch (T), Swallow (T)
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Poison Resistance
5 +15​
M
12"/24" C
16
6
10%
1d10+2
1d6+2
1d4+2
1d8+2
Breath Weapon, Constrict (T), Knockdown (T), Snatch (T), Swallow (T)
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Poison Resistance
6 +24​
L
16"/32" C
15
5
15%
2d6+3
1d8+3
1d6+3
1d10+3
Breath Weapon, Constrict (S), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (S), Snatch (S), Swallow (S), Tail Sweep (10), Trample (10), Wing Buffet (10), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-1)
7 +28​
L
16"/32" C
14
4
15%
2d6+3
1d8+3
1d6+3
1d10+3
Breath Weapon, Constrict (S), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (S), Snatch (S), Swallow (S), Tail Sweep (10), Trample (10), Wing Buffet (10), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-1)
8 +40​
H
20"/40" C
13
3
20%
2d8+4
1d10+4
1d8+4
2d6+4
Breath Weapon, Constrict (M), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (M), Snatch (M), Swallow (M), Tail Sweep (15), Trample (15), Wing Buffet (15), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Normal Missile Immunity, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-2)
9 +45​
H
20"/40" C
12
2
20%
2d8+4
1d10+4
1d8+4
2d6+4
Breath Weapon, Constrict (M), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (M), Snatch (M), Swallow (M), Tail Sweep (15), Trample (15), Wing Buffet (15), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Normal Missile Immunity, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-2)
10 +60​
G
24"/48" C
11
1
25%
3d6+5
2d6+5
1d10+5
2d8+5
Breath Weapon, Constrict (L), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (L), Snatch (L), Swallow (L), Tail Sweep (20), Trample (20), Wing Buffet (20), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Nonmagical Weapon Immunity, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-3)
11 +66​
G
24"/48" C
10
0
25%
3d6+5
2d6+5
1d10+5
2d8+5
Breath Weapon, Constrict (L), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (L), Snatch (L), Swallow (L), Tail Sweep (20), Trample (20), Wing Buffet (20), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Nonmagical Weapon Immunity, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-3)
12 +72​
G
24"/48" C
9
-1
30%
3d8+6
2d8+6
2d6+6
3d6+6
Breath Weapon, Constrict (L), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (L), Snatch (L), Swallow (L), Tail Sweep (20), Trample (20), Wing Buffet (20), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Nonmagical Weapon Immunity, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-3)
13 +78​
G
24"/48" C
8
-2
30%
3d8+6
2d8+6
2d6+6
3d6+6
Breath Weapon, Constrict (L), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (L), Snatch (L), Swallow (L), Tail Sweep (20), Trample (20), Wing Buffet (20), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Nonmagical Weapon Immunity, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-3)
14 +84​
G
24"/48" C
7
-3
35%
4d6+7
3d6+7
2d8+7
3d8+7
Breath Weapon, Constrict (L), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (L), Snatch (L), Swallow (L), Tail Sweep (20), Trample (20), Wing Buffet (20), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Nonmagical Weapon Immunity, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-3)
15 +90​
G
24"/48" C
6
-4
35%
4d6+7
3d6+7
2d8+7
3d8+7
Breath Weapon, Constrict (L), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (L), Snatch (L), Swallow (L), Tail Sweep (20), Trample (20), Wing Buffet (20), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Nonmagical Weapon Immunity, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-3)
16 +96​
G
24"/48" C
5
-5
40%
4d8+8
3d8+8
3d6+8
4d6+8
Breath Weapon, Constrict (L), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (L), Snatch (L), Swallow (L), Tail Sweep (20), Trample (20), Wing Buffet (20), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Nonmagical Weapon Immunity, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-3)
17 +102​
G
24"/48" C
4
-6
40%
4d8+8
3d8+8
3d6+8
4d6+8
Breath Weapon, Constrict (L), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (L), Snatch (L), Swallow (L), Tail Sweep (20), Trample (20), Wing Buffet (20), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Nonmagical Weapon Immunity, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-3)
18 +108​
G
24"/48" C
3
-7
45%
6d6+9
4d6+9
3d8+9
4d8+9
Breath Weapon, Constrict (L), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (L), Snatch (L), Swallow (L), Tail Sweep (20), Trample (20), Wing Buffet (20), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Nonmagical Weapon Immunity, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-3)
19 +114​
G
24"/48" C
2
-8
45%
6d6+9
4d6+9
3d8+9
4d8+9
Breath Weapon, Constrict (L), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (L), Snatch (L), Swallow (L), Tail Sweep (20), Trample (20), Wing Buffet (20), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Nonmagical Weapon Immunity, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-3)
20 +120​
G
24"/48" C
1
-9
50%
6d8+10
4d8+10
4d6+10
6d6+10
Breath Weapon, Constrict (L), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (L), Snatch (L), Swallow (L), Tail Sweep (20), Trample (20), Wing Buffet (20), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Nonmagical Weapon Immunity, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-3)
21 +126​
G
24"/48" C
0
-10
50%
6d8+10
4d8+10
4d6+10
6d6+10
Breath Weapon, Constrict (L), Dragon Fear, Knockdown (L), Snatch (L), Swallow (L), Tail Sweep (20), Trample (20), Wing Buffet (20), Wing Storm
Death Resistance, Disease Immunity, Energy Resistance, Nonmagical Weapon Immunity, Poison Resistance, Weapon Resistance (-3)
1All dragons capable of telepathy also have spell/psionic abilities, a hypnotic gaze attack, and the ability to shapeshift.


Table 2: Dragon Saving Throws

HD
PPDm
RSW
PP
Bw
Sp
1
10
11
10
15
12
2
10
11
10
15
12
3
10
11
10
15
12
4
9
11
10
15
12
5
9
11
9
13
12
6
9
9
9
13
10
7
7
9
9
12
10
8
7
9
9
12
10
9
7
9
8
9
10
10
6
9
8
9
10
11
6
7
8
8
8
12
6
7
8
8
8
13
5
7
6
5
8
14
5
7
6
5
8
15
4
6
5
4
7
16
4
5
5
4
6
17
3
5
4
4
6
18
3
5
4
4
6
19
2
5
4
4
6
20
2
5
4
4
6
21
2
3
4
4
4


Table 3: Dragon Age and Hit Dice by Species (for dragons outside the ones listed here place them in a category based on how they compare with other dragons in the category)

Age
Age
Type 1 (Brass, Crystal, White)
Type 2 (Black, Copper, Topaz)
Type 3 (Bronze, Emerald, Green)
Type 4 (Blue, Sapphire, Silver)
Type 5 (Amethyst, Gold, Red)
Category
Years
HD
HD
HD
HD
HD
1-Hatchling
0-5
1
1
1
1
1
2-Very Young
6-15
2
2
2
3
3
3-Young
16-25
3
3
4
5
5
4-Juvenile
26-50
4
4
5
6
7
5-Young Adult
51-100
5
6
7
8
9
6-Adult
101-200
6
7
8
9
10
7-Mature Adult
201-400
7
8
9
10
12
8-Old
401-600
8
9
10
12
14
9-Very Old
601-800
9
10
12
14
16
10-Venerable
801-1000
11
12
14
16
18
11-Wyrm
1000-1200
12
14
16
18
20
12-Great Wyrm
1201+
13
15
17
19
21


General Abilities of Dragons
The Strength and Constitution scores of a dragon are typically 10 for tiny dragons, 13 for small dragons, 16 for medium dragons, 19 for large dragons, 22 for huge dragons, and 25 for gargantuan dragons. A dragon does not gain a hit or damage adjustment for its Strength score, and does not gain a hit point adjustment for its Constitution score. They otherwise gain the normal benefits and penalties for their Strength and Constitution scores.



The Dexterity score of a dragon is typically 25 for tiny dragons, 21 for small dragons, 19 for medium dragons, 18 for large dragons, 17 for huge dragons, and 16 for gargantuan dragons. A dragons Dexterity score only applies to reaction modifiers and saving throws versus attacks, they do not gain any other benefits from their Dexterity.



The Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of a dragon are typically equal to 10+one half the dragons hit dice (round fractions up). They gain the normal benefits and penalties for their Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores.



Dragons speak their own language, plus a number of additional languages of their choosing up to the limit provided by their intelligence. A dragon has a 4% chance per hit die of having acquired the power to communicate telepathically with any intelligent creature within 10 feet per hit die. A dragon with this ability can telepathically communicate with a number of creatures at once equal to its hit dice.



All of these values can vary from dragon to dragon.



Dragon Defenses

Dragons of large size take -1 damage from weapons other than siege weapons or those wielded by creatures as large or larger than themselves. They take -2 damage at huge size, and -3 damage at gargantuan size. Dragons of huge size are immune to normal missiles; their hides deflect arrows and other small projectiles. Large missiles (from catapults, giants, etc.) and magical missiles affect them normally. Dragons of gargantuan size are so impervious that they are immune to nonmagical weapons.

All dragons are immune to disease save for a few rare magical diseases which are unique to their race. Any creature or attack which can be thwarted by cure disease, such as green slime or rot grubs, when encountering the dragon’s unique physiology has no effect on a dragon, and if it persists it dies instantly as if having been treated by cure disease.

All dragons ignore the first 4 points of damage per hit die from attacks of the same sort as their breath weapon. All dragons ignore the first 1 point of damage per hit die from poisons of all sorts. Dragons which do not have cold breath weapons also ignore the first 1 point of damage per hit die from fire attacks, and those which do not have fire breath weapons also ignore the first 1 point of damage per hit die from cold attacks.

If a dragon is subject to an effect which would slay it outright, it instead loses 4 hit points per hit die.


Dragon Sensory Powers
All dragons have ultravision out to 10 feet per hit die. Their enhanced senses also enable them to detect all invisible objects and creatures (including creatures or items hidden in darkness or fog) within a radius of 10 feet per hit die. A dragon can also spot secret and concealed doors, traps, and other things not in plain sight within the same range. Because of their incredibly keen senses, a -30% penalty on attempts to move silently or hide in shadows is incurred with respect to dragons. Unless a dragon is in a deep slumber or extreme magical measures are employed to mask all indications of a trespasser’s presence, a dragon is never surprised.



A dragon can track as a ranger of a level equal to its hit dice, and they do not suffer the usual -6 tracking penalty for non rangers. In its native climate/terrain, a dragon can move silently and hide in shadows as per a ranger of a level equal to its hit dice. A dragon can attempt to move silently and hide in shadows in other environments, but its base chance is halved.



All dragons possess a natural clairaudience ability with respect to their lairs. While within 10 miles per hit die of its lair, a dragon can concentrate upon a specific spot in its lair and hear in its mind any noise within 10 feet per hit die of that spot.


Dragon Flight

A dragon in flight can change direction quickly by executing a wingover maneuver. The maneuver enables the dragon to make a tum of up to 240 degrees once per round regardless of its speed or size. A dragon cannot gain altitude during the round it executes a wingover, but it may dive. A dragon can use this ability while hovering.



A flying dragon can choose to halt its forward momentum and hover for one round. It must make this decision at the start of the round. A dragon can resume flying normally at the start of the next round, or it can choose to continue hovering.



Dragon Natural Weaponry and Attack Forms
A dragon may make up to 6 attacks per round, one with its bite, two with its claws, two with its wings, and one with its tail. A dragon in flight may not employ its wings in combat, however a flying dragon can strike with all four of its claws. A dragons coordination and flexibility means that it can strike any creature near it with any of its attacks regardless of their relative position to the dragon, and can split its attacks any way it chooses amongst multiple opponents. However, a dragon can only employ at most 3 attacks against a single foe.



If a dragon succeeds on an attack by 4 or more against a creature two or more sizes smaller than itself, it inflicts an additional effect depending on what attack was used.



Bite:
The creature is swallowed and takes damage as from the dragon’s bite each subsequent round. Swallowed creatures may attempt to fight their way out of the dragon’s gullet against an effective AC of 10, but only light piercing or stabbing weapons such as a dagger may be employed, and for each round that passes they have a cumulative -1 penalty to damage from such attacks. Nonetheless, any creature that succeeds in doing a number of points of damage equal to the dragons hit dice will be regurgitated from the dragon.



Claw: The creature is snatched in the dragon’s claws and is squeezed for automatic claw damage each subsequent round. The creature may still attack the dragon, but owing to the circumstances attacks are made at a -4 penalty to hit. The creature must make a successful bend bars/lift gates roll to free themselves, and may attempt to escape each round. A dragon can only hold one creature in each claw, and cannot attack with a claw that is holding a creature. A dragon may always voluntarily release a grappled creature, and may move with grappled creatures at half speed.



Wing: The creature is pushed 30 feet away from the dragon and is knocked prone.



Tail: The creature is restrained in the wyrms coils and is constricted for automatic tail damage each subsequent round. The creature may still attack the dragon, but owing to the circumstances attacks are made at a -4 penalty to hit. The creature must make a successful bend bars/lift gates roll to free themselves, and may attempt to escape each round. A dragon can only constrict one creature with its tail, and cannot attack with its tail while constricting a creature. A dragon may always voluntarily release a grappled creature, and may move with grappled creatures at half speed.



As they grow in size and power, dragons gain access to additional abilities that they can utilize. Several such abilities give the dragon options they can use in place of making certain attacks. The following table provides a breakdown of a dragons normal combat routine, and the replacement options for each attack mode. Unless a dragon has multiple uses of a certain attack mode it cannot use multiple replacement options for the same attack mode in a round. Furthermore, some abilities replace all of a dragons attacks for a certain attack mode for a round, those abilities are listed in the third column.



Table 4: Dragon Replacement Attack Mode Chart


Normal Dragon Attacks in a Round
Can Replace With
Can Replace All With
Bite
Breath Weapon, Hypnotic Gaze, Psionic Ability, Spell, Spell Like Ability
Claw (x2)
Trample
Wing (x2)
Wing Buffet, Wing Storm
Tail
Tail Sweep


Spells

Dragons with the power of telepathy have spell casting ability. Dragon spells are expressed as wizard or priest spell slots, and the dragon has as many spell slots as a wizard or priest of a level equal to half their hit dice (round fractions up). There is a 1% chance per hit die that a dragon has spell slots as both a wizard and a priest. Each spell slot is filled with a single spell, which is usually determined randomly, and the dragon can cast the spell from each spell slot once per day. If the dragon randomly rolls for spells and get a duplicate, the spell may be used one additional time per day for each duplicate result. Dragons do not use spell books or pray to deities; they simply sleep, concentrate when they awaken, and remember their spells. Dragon spells have only a verbal component and have a casting time of 1. A dragon’s caster level for its spells is equal to its hit dice.



Spell Like Abilities

Any dragon with the power of telepathy can cast polymorph self at will as a spell like ability. All dragons also have access to additional spell like abilities. Dragon spell like abilities have a casting time of 3, do not require components, and are not interruptible. The dragon’s caster level for such abilities is equal to its hit dice.



Psionics

Dragons with the power of telepathy have a 1% chance per hit die to develop psionic abilities. Dragons who develop them have psionic abilities as a psionicist of a level equal to half their hit dice (round fractions up). Dragons are assumed to use the system found in the complete psionics handbook for their psionic rules and abilities, although all dragon psionic abilities have a preparation time of 0.



Special Attacks


Hypnotic Gaze:
Any dragon which has the power of telepathy, if it fixes its gaze on a single creature and locks eyes with it, may employ hypnotism against that foe as the spell of the same name. The caster level of this ability is equal to the dragons hit dice. A dragon cannot bite in the same round it uses this ability.



Breath Weapon:
Each dragon has a breath weapon which it may employ in lieu of its bite attack. A dragons breath weapon comes in one of three different shapes, each with its own dimension based on the dragons hit dice.



Cone –A cone breath weapon is 5 feet long per hit die, and has a base as wide as it is long.

Cloud –A cloud breath weapon is 5 feet long per hit die, and is half as wide and half as tall as it is long.

Line –A line breath weapon is 10 feet long per hit die and is 5 feet wide and 5 feet tall.



A dragon’s breath weapon can be damaging or non-damaging. Targets in the affected area of a damaging breath weapon suffer twice the damage of a bite attack, a saving throw versus breath weapon indicates half damage is taken. Targets in the affected area of a non-damaging breath weapon can suffer just about any effect that does not deal damage and does not instantly kill the opposition, a saving throw versus breath weapon negates the effect of a non-damaging breath weapon.



After using its breath weapon, a dragon must wait two rounds before it can use it again. So, if a dragon breathed on the first round, it would not be able to breathe on the second or third rounds, and would be able to breathe again on the fourth round.



Dragon Fear: As a large size or larger dragon attacks, flies overhead, or charges, they radiate a powerful aura which causes the following effects on all creatures within 10 feet per hit die of the dragon:

1. Creatures with 1 or fewer hit dice, as well as all non-carnivorous, non-aggressive creatures with fewer hit dice than the dragon, will be paralyzed with fear (50%) for as long as the dragon remains in view, or else will flee in panic (50%) for 4d6 rounds. Such a rout will be made at the fastest speed possible away from the dragon.
2. Trained war mounts, organized military units, and single creatures with 2 or more hit dice are entitled to saving throws versus petrification. Creatures failing their saving throws are stricken with fear and fight with a -2 penalty to their attack and damage rolls.
3. Creatures with hit dice equal to or greater than those of the dragon are immune to the fear effect.



Tail Sweep: A dragon of at least large size may attempt to bowl over anyone in a wide swath with the sweep of their tail, rather than picking out an individual target. Tail sweep attacks preclude the dragon from making any other sort of attack with its tail. A dragon of at least large size effects all targets in a 10 foot square area behind it; a dragon of at least huge size effects all targets in 15 foot square behind it, while a dragon of at least gargantuan size effects all targets in a 20 foot square behind it. Targets in the affected area suffer one half the damage of a tail attack and are knocked prone, a saving throw versus petrification indicates half damage is taken and negates the knockdown effect. All targets within the area of effect must be at least two sizes smaller than the dragon, or such an attack may not be attempted.



Trample: A dragon of at least large size may trample opponents beneath its claws. Trample attacks preclude the dragon from making any other sort of attack with its claws. To use a trample attack, the dragon must either charge or land. If a charge, the attack effects a swath as long as the charge and 10 feet wide (if the dragon is large) 15 feet wide (if the dragon is huge) or 20 feet wide (if the dragon is gargantuan). If the attack is made by landing, the area of effect is 10 feet wide and 10 feet long (large dragons) 15 feet wide and 15 feet long (huge dragons) or 20 feet wide and 20 feet long (gargantuan dragon). Targets in the affected area suffer the damage of a claw attack and are knocked prone, a saving throw versus petrification indicates half damage is taken and negates the knockdown effect. All targets in the area of effect must be at least two sizes smaller than the dragon, or such an attack may not be attempted.



Wing Buffet: A dragon of at least large size may use its wings to knock down opponents on its sides instead of striking individual targets. Wing buffet attacks preclude the dragon from making any other sort of attack with its wings. A dragon of at least large size effects all targets within 10 feet of its sides; a dragon of at least huge size effects all targets within 15 feet of its sides, while a dragon of at least gargantuan size effects all targets within 20 feet of its sides. Targets in the affected area suffer the damage of a wing attack and are knocked prone, a saving throw versus petrification indicates half damage is taken and negates the knockdown effect. All targets within the area of effect must be at least two sizes smaller than the dragon, or such an attack may not be attempted.



Wing Storm: A dragon of at least large size can, when on the ground, employ its wings to make a powerful blast of wind in all directions. This effect functions as a gust of wind spell with a caster level equal to the dragon’s hit dice, save that the area of effect is a 5 foot radius per hit die. If the dragon uses this ability in an area with lots of debris and loose earth, the downdraft from its wings creates a dust cloud in the same area that lasts until the gust ends. Creatures within the area are blinded, although the dragons keen senses allow it to continue fighting largely unhindered. If a dragon employs this ability, it may not attack with its wings in the same round.


So what are everyone's thoughts on these rules?
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

dave2008

Legend
Just curious, what are the problems you are trying to solve.

PS, I really enjoyed @Celebrim's thread by the way. I argued with him a bit, but he convinced me his approach was pretty spot on.
 


Combat bonus was removed from dragons. Combat bonus mostly applied to natural attack damage in the original system. Dragons under this system gain additional damage when they grow in size, creating a more natural progression than combat bonus does.

Combat bonus also occasionally applied to other things dragon related (specifically as a penalty to saves against the tail attack and a few other things). However, its application was both inconsistent and problematic. So rather than keep combat bonus around I removed it entirely.

A damaging breath weapon deals damage equal to twice the dragons bite damage. Originally when I was making these rules, I had a dragons breath weapon deal 1d4 damage per hit die of the dragon. When I realized that the overall damage from a dragons breath weapon was typically close to twice its bite damage, I decided to make the switch for the sake of consistency. All of the other "special" attacks (trample, tail sweep, wing buffet) dealt damage based around existing natural attacks, so I decided to make breath weapon do the same.
 

The problems that I wished to solve with dragons in 2e are manyfold. Here are just a few of them.

1.) Inconsistently scaling of abilities.
A dragons combat bonus applied to its damage, but really it mostly just serves to highlight one of the legacy problems that was ported over straight from 1st edition, namely that a great wyrm dragons damage is not actually that much higher than a wyrmlings. A wyrmling dragons bite does anywhere from 9 to 21, and only goes up by 12 points despite the vast difference in size and power between a newly hatched 12 foot dragon and a 400 foot great wyrm. While a dragons melee damage does scale as they age, the scaling is linear, with no actual thought given to the size and power disparity.

A dragons breath weapon is another example of this lack of scaling in one area. A wyrmling dragons breath weapon is identical to a great wyrms in every way except for damage, the range never increases despite the dragon's increased size.

2.) The breath weapon and rocket tag.
On the other hand, a dragons breath weapon does in fact scale at a steady rate. However, they scale far too well for how many hit points characters have. Much like 1e dragons, many 2e dragons would be capable of one-shotting themselves with their own breath weapons, any character caught in the breath weapon of a powerful red dragon will likely die immediately even on a successful saving throw.

Dragons also have some incredibly unbalanced abilities in the form of there tail slap and to a lesser extent there crush attack. Tail slap is a multi-target at will multi-round stun that also deals high amounts of damage and most egregiously gives a penalty to the saving throw equal to the dragon's combat modifier (-12 for a great wyrm). Crush also has a similar issue with the colossal saving throw penalty thrown in on top of an already deadly attack. The penalty is also applied only to those 2 abilities, it is not applied consistently to the dragon's other abilities, such as there frightful presence and breath weapon.

Dragons are likewise very vulnerable to the rocket tag aspect of 2e, and are liable to die extremely fast to pcs or even just a random roll. One of my goals with building this was to make dragons somewhat less deadly, but compensate by boosting their defenses and most importantly make them more interesting while doing do.

3. Special Abilities.
A dragons special abilities make them difficult to run smoothly in engagements, because of how many clauses and exceptions there are to what a dragon can do in a turn. A dragon can make 3 attacks in a round...unless it is diving at which point it can make either 2 or 4 depending on whether it is targeting someone in the air or the ground. A dragon that kicks only gets one claw attack and cannot attack with its tail. A dragon that hovers can attack with all of its claws and its bite, but not its wings or tail. A diving dragon can snatch creatures in its claws...but can it bite against a creature as well? A dragon can do nothing else in the round in which it breathes, and it must glide to breathe and cast spells. A dragon can combine its innate abilities with any other form of attack...except for spells and breath weapons. Exception after exception, ruling after ruling, all of which make running dragons in combat far more of a chore than it should be.

Dragons in 2e have many interesting abilities and riders on some of there attacks, however, the unwieldiness of dragons and the wild power differences in there abilities make it difficult to run them as written.
 

dave2008

Legend
Combat bonus was removed from dragons. Combat bonus mostly applied to natural attack damage in the original system. Dragons under this system gain additional damage when they grow in size, creating a more natural progression than combat bonus does.

Combat bonus also occasionally applied to other things dragon related (specifically as a penalty to saves against the tail attack and a few other things). However, its application was both inconsistent and problematic. So rather than keep combat bonus around I removed it entirely.

A damaging breath weapon deals damage equal to twice the dragons bite damage. Originally when I was making these rules, I had a dragons breath weapon deal 1d4 damage per hit die of the dragon. When I realized that the overall damage from a dragons breath weapon was typically close to twice its bite damage, I decided to make the switch for the sake of consistency. All of the other "special" attacks (trample, tail sweep, wing buffet) dealt damage based around existing natural attacks, so I decided to make breath weapon do the same.
OK then I am not understanding your chart. A great warm bite only does 4d8 + 2 damAge? I don't thi k that is. Correct, so what am I missing?

PS I'm all for making damage scale better, but right now it looks lime things barely scale at all. The difference in damage from 16 - 21 HD is only 2 damage(on a bite)?
 


I stopped at 21 hit dice because most of the dragon abilities hit there cap at around that amount. There saving throws max out, their armor class hits the typical cap for the edition, and there THACO hit 0, which I feel is a good stopping place for it as it makes calculation relatively easy. I could have gone beyond 21 hit dice (and in fact, I still might do an extension of the table and rules) but I would have to abide by those caps, which would make future progression all but stop with the exception of hit points and damage.

As for the damage, remember that PCs cap out at 9 or 10 hit dice (unless you happen to be playing an Athasian dragon or other advanced being) only gaining tiny amounts of hit points after that point. Also, the only ones who can gain more than 2 extra hit points per hit die are fighters, and even they cap out at 6 if they somehow end up with a 25 con score. Outside of playing a Athasian half giant, the maximum hit points for a character is somewhere around 150 for a fighter with a 25 con score who rolled maximum for all there hit points. Most characters will have one third to one half of that hit point amount. So while a dragon's damage may seem low, the damage that they do deal will very quickly add up.
Also dragons under my system have much, much better survivability than normal dragons. A 21 hit die dragon has well over 200 hit points, only fails saving throws on a roll of 3 or less, takes reduced damage from many attacks, has 50% MR, and can suffer several instant death attacks without going down. A fight with a dragon is unlikely to be a quick affair, so the damage a dragon can deal will add up round after round.

Plus adjusting the damage up is relatively easy. My personal suggestion for doing so if you think that their damage is too low is too increase the damage a dragon deals with each attack by an amount equal to half its hit dice. That way as a dragon increases in size, its damage will grow both through the damage die and through a static modifier simultaneously.
 


As for why the damage scaling changed after 16 hit dice, when I originally made this I continued my scaling progression based on the same pattern I used for the previous 16 hit dice. Thus a 21 hit die dragon would have damage as follows: bite 8d6, claw 6d6, wing 4d8, tail 6d8. The problem comes when you realize that those numbers are over half again as high as the 16 hit die numbers. The dragons dpr increases by more than half again in the space of just 5 hit dice. I decided that instead of having the damage jump up by such a huge amount in such a short period of time, I would do a static modifier instead.
It is somewhat clunky, I know, and i have considered changing back to the original progression.
 

Remove ads

Top