Revised bard

[OneWinged4ngel]

Very nice. Although I personally have a love/hate relationship with the Bard class (can't stand the image of the singing fop in the back of the party of grim slayers...."inspiring" them)

The problem is that the flavor is completely wrong. D&D justs fails at representing bards from any literature other than that *directly based on D&D.* Seriously, go look at other examples of Bards from fiction, such as, I don't know, anything from Demyx to the Pied Piper (especially his reimagined versions where he does more, like in King Rat).

I cannot think of one example of a PC bard that actually does what you just described (standing back there, playing an instrument, inspiring them) in anything outside of D&D and things directly based off D&D or in video games (which are largely based off D&D too, so it really is part of the last category), and in those video games it's *never* a part of the story, it's *only* a part of the mechanics. They never do that stuff in cutscenes or anything. And it's usually only in games that have class/job-changing.

The thing is, bards are freakin' awesome, and they do freakin' awesome things, but "Inspire Competence" isn't really one of them, and that is the main reason why I think the D&D bard fails horribly.

My version of the Bard: This class is the awesome bards from literature and fiction that is NOT directly based on D&D, not the crappy "I play a lute to inspire people" class. They're more an alternate kind of magician with a dose of the jack. With this class, you can make a seeker of the song whose primordial song of creation conjures a dance of ice and fire, a keeper of ancient tales and histories who can summon the ghosts of legendary heroes to assist him, a cruel soul piper who leads his thralls about with a merry tune, a dirge singer whose enchanting yet haunting voice compels armies to victory and foes to bleed and die, a cultural sage and diplomat who keeps the oral traditions and secret words, or be a waterworks rockstar like Demyx.

The wandering minstrel and canny highwayman with a woman in every town along the Kingsroad? That's... a Rogue that has Perform ranks.

An example of bardic fluff from a setting:

There is a certain harmony to creation, an order and elegance to the results of the Genesis that created the planescape and spawned the fey. It is the bards that hear (incidentally, as Einstein put it) the music of the spheres, who listen to the echoes of the primordial song of creation. And it is they who learn to play to its tune.

They can control thoughts by influencing the memosphere, rippling the immaterial fabric with a perfect note. They can recall the ghosts of the past, hearing the echoes of things that once were. They can make the elements stand up and dance by playing fire's favorite tune. They can even make you hear or feel sounds.

Now, some of the D&D writers actually have started to realize that they blew chunks on the bard flavor, and this is reflected by some of the later comments they made and later mechanics they made. The flavor of Lyric Thaumaturge or Seeker of the Song is a better example of what a Bard should be (too bad the mechanics for the Seeker *sucked ass.* But that's what Eela's is for.)

So... what I'm getting at is that the archetype of the Bard isn't what's makes bards uncool, it's actually specifically WotC's crappy-ass version of bards that makes me want to cry.

if you HAVE to include magic....

If you *don't* include magic, then it *is* just some idiot standing in the back singing. I thought you said that was what you didn't want?

Re: Jack of All Trades....how 'bout......Jack of All Trades? The feat from Complete Adventurer (page 110). I believe it models what the Bard should have, completing the "promise" in the descriptive text claiming that they are, indeed, Jacks of All Trades...that doesn't make sense when you have a Bard with 7 thieving skills at max rank

Dear lord no. Jack of All Trades gets an award for being one of the worst feats in existence (seriously, there were a coupla threads on "what's the worst feat ever?" and it kept coming up). It doesn't make you a jack of all trades, it's just crap. It doesn't do anything to 95% of skills, and the ones it does effect... well great, you can roll when you have zero ranks, so now you can fail at a trained-only skill or two! Whoop-de-freakin'-doo. The bard-as-written does a significantly better job in that department with just Bardic Knowledge or the PHB II variant thereof.

 

[Kerrick]

Hey Kerrick,

Very nice. Although I personally have a love/hate relationship with the Bard class (can't stand the image of the singing fop in the back of the party of grim slayers...."inspiring" them), I always appreciate new angles that improve the "feel" of the mechanics. I was disappointed to read that you are including spellcasting after all. Have you considered the "spellsong" magic alternate Bard from Monte Cook's Eldritch Might series? I always liked the feel of that.....if you HAVE to include magic....

I dunno..I liked the concept of a spellcasting bard. Like Angel said, they need something besides just songs. They're a jack of all trades - they can sing, they can kind of fight, they know a lot of skills, and they can cast some spells. Their spell selection really fits them - illusions and charms. A friend of mine has BoEM, and I vaguely recall reading the bardsongs thing; I'll check that out.

I built an alterate Bard class called the Skald which uses the Hit Die, BAB, Saves and Proficiencies of the 3.5 Ranger class.

I've got a Skald PrC that's much the same - he has battle songs, greater proficiency with weapons, and such.

Re: Jack of All Trades....how 'bout......Jack of All Trades? The feat from Complete Adventurer (page 110). I believe it models what the Bard should have, completing the "promise" in the descriptive text claiming that they are, indeed, Jacks of All Trades...that doesn't make sense when you have a Bard with 7 thieving skills at max rank

Eh. I want to keep this OGC, and I don't have CAdv.

The problem is that the flavor is completely wrong. D&D justs fails at representing bards from any literature other than that *directly based on D&D.* Seriously, go look at other examples of Bards from fiction, such as, I don't know, anything from Demyx to the Pied Piper (especially his reimagined versions where he does more, like in King Rat).

The thing is, bards are freakin' awesome, and they do freakin' awesome things, but "Inspire Competence" isn't really one of them, and that is the main reason why I think the D&D bard fails horribly.

I'll agree on the first point - our group has close to a dozen custom bard PrCs, and that many again that a bard can take easily. On the second point: Music can inspire a lot of things - courage, fear, competence, whatever. Have you ever heard a really good band (I mean a band band, not a musical group) play? The music just sweeps you up and takes you along for the ride. Why do you think they had pipers in the army in the Revolution?

As someone who's served in the armed forces, I can tell you that cadences weren't just for keeping time - they were a way to encourage esprit de corps, camaraderie, and being a greater part of the whole. Our unit was loud and proud, and we never failed to show it. A good cadence/chant/song can get your blood up and give you confidence you didn't know you had.

With this class, you can make a seeker of the song whose primordial song of creation conjures a dance of ice and fire, a keeper of ancient tales and histories who can summon the ghosts of legendary heroes to assist him, a cruel soul piper who leads his thralls about with a merry tune, a dirge singer whose enchanting yet haunting voice compels armies to victory and foes to bleed and die, a cultural sage and diplomat who keeps the oral traditions and secret words, or be a waterworks rockstar like Demyx.

Heh. We've got PrC versions of most of those; the Seeker of Lost Lore (who seeks out - duh - lost bardic works and can call up the shades of the dead), the Dark Harlequin (a necromancer bard), the Jester (stolen from 2E), and the Planar Emissary (someone who writes and negotiates contracts with celestial and/or infernal beings).

 

[OneWinged4ngel]

Music can inspire a lot of things - courage, fear, competence, whatever. Have you ever heard a really good band (I mean a band band, not a musical group) play? The music just sweeps you up and takes you along for the ride. Why do you think they had pipers in the army in the Revolution?

Because it helps morale and sets marching pace. When they suddenly didn't have people marching in lines, they mostly got rid of the pipers, and they never used such people for skirmishes, which is what D&D is about. And those people were NPCs with a few ranks in Perform, not PC class heroes like the D&D cast or any of the heroic bards we see in myth and legend. Playing an uplifting tune just doesn't cut it as a replacement for "hurling an 80 foot inferno at people 3 times in six seconds."

As someone who's served in the armed forces, I can tell you that cadences weren't just for keeping time - they were a way to encourage esprit de corps, camaraderie, and being a greater part of the whole. Our unit was loud and proud, and we never failed to show it. A good cadence/chant/song can get your blood up and give you confidence you didn't know you had.

And you think that justifies that being a primary role in a skirmish group amongst Conan and Merlin and whoever else?

I would seriously just roll that in with the Perform skill, and I have done so in my own fixes (And why shouldn't it? As is, Tumble lets you perform for money just as well as Perform does, except that Tumble actually has a use in combat too. Not to mention I made that skill even better by making it Acrobatics). The power of "being good at music" is just the Perform skill. The power of music magic is worth being a PC class.

They're a jack of all trades - they can sing, they can kind of fight, they know a lot of skills, and they can cast some spells.

Lies! At least, as written. Bards require specialization to be effective in D&D. If you want an actual jack of all trades, there's the Cleric or the Artificer hanging out over there. The Bard is a specialist, and if you don't want him to be a specialist, you need to completely rewrite the class. Just because WotC says it's a Jack in the flavor text doesn't mean it's true.

Their spell selection really fits them - illusions and charms.

Only some bards. Others have other powers, like making water dance and kill people.

I dunno..I liked the concept of a spellcasting bard. Like Angel said, they need something besides just songs.

No no no. The songs *are* the spells. Bards are the masters of music magic. Not guys who know music *and* magic. That's just a spellcaster with the perform skill.

 

[Kerrick]

Lies! At least, as written. Bards require specialization to be effective in D&D. If you want an actual jack of all trades, there's the Cleric or the Artificer hanging out over there. The Bard is a specialist, and if you don't want him to be a specialist, you need to completely rewrite the class. Just because WotC says it's a Jack in the flavor text doesn't mean it's true.

A specialist in what? From where I'm standing, they don't anything really well (or at least better than anyone else), except for their music (which, I think we can agree, needs some work).

 

[OneWinged4ngel]

A specialist in what?

They specialize in whatever you want them to specialize in. If I want to make a melee bard, I grab dragonfire inspiration, song of the white raven, and some ToB levels and go to town. If I want to make a buffer bard, I grab War Weaver and Sublime Chord for 9th level spells and buffing benefits. And so on and so forth. The Bard can specialize in many things, but he can't do all those things at once. If you try to have a Bard who is, say, very good at melee *and* buffing *and* debuffing *and* offensive spellcasting *and* utility and so forth, you're likely to run into a few roadblocks.

In any case, bards very much require you to focus your feats (and / or prestige classes) in one area of expertise to be at their best. They just aren't really great jacks of all trades. An example of a good jack of all trades is the Cleric. He can actually try his hand at just about everything at once and be best or second best in the party at it. The Bard is a contrast where one character is good at a very limited number of things based on where you focused their build.

It's also worth noting, if you want to go ahead and try to rewrite the bard, that the bard is usually about a 4-8 level long class. At level 8, the Inspire Courage ramp peters out into a quite uninspiring progression and you want to start grabbing stuff like Sublime Chord. There's not much of anything left to get out of the class after level 8.

 

[Kerrick]

They specialize in whatever you want them to specialize in. If I want to make a melee bard, I grab dragonfire inspiration, song of the white raven, and some ToB levels and go to town. If I want to make a buffer bard, I grab War Weaver and Sublime Chord for 9th level spells and buffing benefits. And so on and so forth.

Let's stick to the core here, for the time being - I, personally, don't have any of those books. I understand your point, though.

In any case, bards very much require you to focus your feats (and / or prestige classes) in one area of expertise to be at their best. They just aren't really great jacks of all trades. An example of a good jack of all trades is the Cleric. He can actually try his hand at just about everything at once and be best or second best in the party at it.

A "jack of all trades" isn't supposed to be the best at everything he can do. The saying is "Jack of all trades, master of none" - he's supposed to be half-decent at all the things he can do, OR (like you said) he can choose an aspect to specialize in. In this, the bard succeeds quite well.

It's also worth noting, if you want to go ahead and try to rewrite the bard, that the bard is usually about a 4-8 level long class. At level 8, the Inspire Courage ramp peters out into a quite uninspiring progression and you want to start grabbing stuff like Sublime Chord. There's not much of anything left to get out of the class after level 8.

That's why I rewrote the songs, added a bunch of new ones, and scaled the effects so that you get more bonuses the higher your check is. In short, I changed the class to make it more viable at all levels. They could probably use another ability progression at 4/9/14/19 to fill in some dead levels, but I'm not sure what.

 

[OneWinged4ngel]

Let's stick to the core here, for the time being - I, personally, don't have any of those books. I understand your point, though.

Core, the bard is good at two things: Social interaction, and Fascinate abuse. They also have a bit of spellcasting (in a specialized field, which mainly has to do with social interaction and... the same stuff Fascinate does) and later on, he can get Otto's Irresistable Dance at a crappier-than-normal caster level. That's... about it. That's not bad, by any means, but it's not a jack of all trades at all. It's an enchantment/illusion specialist that's worse than the Beguiler in pretty much every way except for a few cheap tricks (Fascinate abuse, for instance). In fact, the core bard is quite possibly the most fragile in melee (the squishies are better off!). He seriously has no melee talent whatsoever without a good deal of specialization. All the bardic melee talent comes from noncore sources (Inspire ramp, multiclass feats, melee buff spells, special melee bard feats and equipment, etc)

By what stretch of the imagination is this a "jack of all trades"?

A "jack of all trades" isn't supposed to be the best at everything he can do. The saying is "Jack of all trades, master of none" - he's supposed to be half-decent at all the things he can do

Which most bards are notably *not.*

OR (like you said) he can choose an aspect to specialize in. In this, the bard succeeds quite well.

What the *heck*?

...No, a specialist is the opposite of a jack of all trades. Duh. I can't believe I have to actually say that. Hell, by your definition, *every character in D&D is a jack of all trades,* which is, obviously, absurd.

Anywho, let's take a look at these songs that you claim makes the Bard longer than an 8-level class.

Healing Harmony (Su):

A bard who makes a DC 26 Perform check can generate healing energy in a number of allies equal to his Charisma bonus within 30 feet. The allies must be able to hear the bard perform, and he must be able to see them. Each round the bard plays, they regain 1 hit point; dying allies do not gain hit points, but gain a +2 bonus to Constitution checks to avoid losing more hit points (those at 0 hit points are not affected).

For every 10 points by which the bard's Perform check exceeds DC 26, the allies gain an additional 1 hit point of healing each round.

Prerequisites: Collaborative chant, 11th level.

This song's garbage. Whoop-de-doo, I can expend a bardic music for the same effect as a few charges out of a vigor wand. No one would take 3 extra levels just to get this...

Hindering Song:

A bard who makes a DC 35 Perform check can use song or poetics to hinder enemy spellcasters within 30 feet. To successfully cast a spell within this area, a spellcaster must make a Concentration check as if he or she were casting defensively (DC 10 + 1/2 bard's level + bard's Cha bonus). The bard can choose to exclude anyone from this effect. The bard can keep up the hindering song for a maximum of 10 rounds.

For each 10 points by which the bard's Perform check exceeds 35, the Concentration DC increases by +1.

Prerequisites: Countersong, 17th level.

Okay, so I'm 17th level. I use this to try to stop an enemy spellcaster. The DC is about 27 (that assumes an 16 cha base, +6 from an item, +4 from levels, and a 45 perform check). ALL the spellcasters all have 21 ranks in Concentration now, probably have some 16 Constitution or more from one source or another (assuming they started with like 12), so you're looking at them failing on a roll of 1-2. If they have Skill Focus Concentration or something, they just fail on a one. Not too inspiring for me to hang in their 9 levels just for this.

Inspire Valor (Su): A bard who makes a DC 30 Perform check can use music or poetics to inspire heroism in himself and a single willing ally within 30 feet. For every levels the bard has over 14th, he can affect one extra ally. A creature so inspired gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls and melee damage rolls, and a +4 morale bonus to saves vs. charm and fear effects. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for up to 5 rounds thereafter. Inspire valor is a mind-affecting ability.

For every 10 points by which the bard’s Perform check exceeds DC 30, affected creatures gain an additional +1 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls.

Prerequisites: Inspire courage, 14th level.

Wow, this is way worse than Inspire Courage. Looking at what you did to Inspire Courage, though, I just see that you took away any good parts of Inspire Courage and moved it waaaay up here. Why do you want to NERF the bard so?

Seriously, you get to affect one ally with a +2 / +2 at level 14? I have better stuff in my low level spells...

...Where is the part where you made the bard worth staying in? In fact, all I see is that you nerfed them at lower levels, and gave them garbage abilities at higher levels.

 

[Kerrick]

Wow, who pissed in your Wheaties? Seriously.

By what stretch of the imagination is this a "jack of all trades"?

Let's see...

They get 6+Int skill points and a list of 32 skills (counting 9 Knowledge skills), which is nearly as good as the rogue, and they can serve as a rogue in a pinch;

They have a Medium BAB and a semi-decent selection of weapons (better than the cleric), but a poor armor selection (I must admit at this point that I thought they could wear medium armor, but that's easily fixed), BUT they can cast spells in armor without penalty;

They get Knowledge-based abilities;

They get a decent spell selection (though heavily weighted toward enchantments and illusions).

Which most bards are notably *not.* What the *heck*?

How many bards have you played/seen played? I don't see why a bard, properly played, can't hold his own in a party - he's got plenty of skills and songs and spells to buff his allies (though they could use a bit more in this regard). He can fight as well as a rogue, though he lacks the rogue's sneak attack, which makes him a lousy striker. So yes, we agree that his combat ability is sub-par, but it's nothing that a few levels in fighter, rogue, Duelist, or even barbarian can't fix.

This song's garbage. Whoop-de-doo, I can expend a bardic music for the same effect as a few charges out of a vigor wand. No one would take 3 extra levels just to get this...

Since I don't know what vigor does (it's not core), I can't really comment.

Okay, so I'm 17th level. I use this to try to stop an enemy spellcaster. The DC is about 27 (that assumes an 16 cha base, +6 from an item, +4 from levels, and a 45 perform check). ALL the spellcasters all have 21 ranks in Concentration now, probably have some 16 Constitution or more from one source or another (assuming they started with like 12), so you're looking at them failing on a roll of 1-2. If they have Skill Focus Concentration or something, they just fail on a one. Not too inspiring for me to hang in their 9 levels just for this.

Aha, a valid point - and you were even halfway civil. I think I'll swap that with Song of Freedom, since break enchantment is a L6 spell (which they get at L16), and give it a +1 bonus/5 points over the DC. So, a L12 bard making a DC 36 check would be about DC 24 for the counterspell. I can see why they used Perform DC = caster level check DC, but that version is utterly broken since bards can pump their DCs sky-high. I'm really not sure what to do here.

Wow, this is way worse than Inspire Courage. Looking at what you did to Inspire Courage, though, I just see that you took away any good parts of Inspire Courage and moved it waaaay up here. Why do you want to NERF the bard so?

"Courage" implies bravery in the face of fear; it has little to do with being more effective at attacking and dealing damage. And besides, I just moved the attack/damage bonus (which is doubled, BTW) to the next higher song at L8.

Inspire Heroics is pretty hefty, which is why I moved it to L20. If I'd kept it at L14, how could I top that and keep some semblance of balance? Inspire Valor is pretty weak, yes. I wasn't too happy with the way the battlesong tree turned out overall, but I couldn't think of anything better.
Maybe I could do a stacking system whereby each higher song has x effect AND all the effects of the songs below it in the tree...

 

[OneWinged4ngel]

They get 6+Int skill points and a list of 32 skills (counting 9 Knowledge skills), which is nearly as good as the rogue, and they can serve as a rogue in a pinch;

You mean like a Beguiler? The specialist? Oh wait, no, the Beguiler has *more* skills than you because he has Int as a primary stat to invest in, whereas the Bard doesn't. Bummer.

They have a Medium BAB and a semi-decent selection of weapons (better than the cleric)

This is absolutely meaningless. A 3/4 BAB and a shortsword does not make you a decent fighter at all.

What are you gonna do, run up to the Warforged Titan (CR8 encounter) with your level 8 Bard, get AoOed by his 15-foot-reach (and be at almost no health for when he follows up on you with a +16/+11 full attack and dealing what, 6d8+27 (average damage 54)? Or maybe he'll just grapple you, in which case his modifier's almost 30. Or maybe he'll take advantage of Powerful Charge (if they charge you, they'll only miss that 17 AC on a 1, and hit you for 2d8+3d6+13 (average 32.5 damage, and then they'd still be at 15-feet and able to AoO you if you try to approach, only missing on a 1 and doing another 2d8+9 damage (average 18)), Awesome Blow, and Power Attack. What's your HP and AC now? 8d6+8 (average 36hp) and 17 AC (Generous with a mithral breastplate and 16 dex)? Yeah, you're dead in one round, even if he misses somehow with that +16/+16/+11 set of 2d8+9s), and hit his 25 AC with your whopping +2 attack bonus advantage over the party Wizard and make your puny 1d6 damage get eaten by his DR (or, if it's an adamantine shortsword, his 106 hp)? ROFL... good luck buddy. I hope your DM is pulling punches and fudging rolls for you, because otherwise you're going to die.

If you cannot hope to survive a round in melee, let alone do any notable damage in melee, you're not half-decent at melee, you just SUCK at it. The bard can become very good in melee, but all those tools are in supplements.

Calling people uncivil isn't going to make that any less of a reality.

but a poor armor selection (I must admit at this point that I thought they could wear medium armor, but that's easily fixed), BUT they can cast spells in armor without penalty;

Light armor w/o defensive abilities = you're the most fragile person in the core books. Everyone is harder to kill than you. *Everyone.*

They get a decent spell selection (though heavily weighted toward enchantments and illusions).

Like a Beguiler?

How many bards have you played/seen played?

Played about 12, give or take (more if you're including me DMing), and seen many, many more. And optimized my share of bard builds in quite a few departments (melee bards, caster bards, singer bards, and so forth). Not that that's at all relevant. I like bards. Also, judging from that fact that you think that a rapier and 3/4 BAB somehow makes you a decent fighter, you haven't played a lot of D&D, let alone Bards.

I don't see why a bard, properly played, can't hold his own in a party - he's got plenty of skills and songs and spells to buff his allies (though they could use a bit more in this regard).

He can fight as well as a rogue

No he can't, because...

he lacks the rogue's sneak attack, which makes him a lousy striker.

So he's a lousy striker, and the most fragile person in melee in the game... why is he a decent fighter again? In order to be half-decent at a role, you have to be actually capable of filling that role when dealing with level-appropriate challenges. The melee roles are broadly tank (guy who controls enemies or stops them from getting to you) and striker (guy who kills enemies). Which one of these is the core, unspecialized bard half-decent at? Seriously, he's not "half decent" at this role, he's god-awful at it unless you have the supplements that give him the tools to be good at it.

You know, a Beguiler has light armor... and better defensive abilities than the core bard. How about that?

So yes, we agree that his combat ability is sub-par, but it's nothing that a few levels in fighter, rogue, Duelist, or even barbarian can't fix.

And the ability to take barbarian levels means that the *BARD* is a half-decent fighter and thus a Jack of All Trades? What kind of bad joke are you trying to make here?

A Beguiler can take levels in other classes that aren't synergistic with it at all too! Noticing a pattern here?

The Beguiler actually is very good at multiclassing, but not in the core version. You need to actually have the Bard/Paladin (Frequently termed Bardadins) multiclassing feat or the Bard/ToB (White Raven Bards) multiclassing feat or something in order to make it worthwhile.

The Beguiler isn't considered a Jack of All Trades, it's considered a specialist. Calling the core bard a jack of all trades is disingenuous at best.

Since I don't know what vigor does (it's not core), I can't really comment.

Fine, "cure light wounds wand." Same thing. It's a useless ability for that level, and *no one cares about it.*

Actually, by cutting out Fascinate (which probably should be cut out, it's very abusable) and Inspire Courage (and giving them nothing comparable in return!), you took the Bard down from an 8-level class (which people take to get Inspire Courage or go into Sublime Chord) to a zero-level class. There is now no reason at all that anyone shouldn't just play a Beguiler (or sorcerer, or wizard, or cleric) instead. You didn't fix the bard, you made it worse. None of the songs you put up there are remotely useful compared to appropriate-levelled spells (Unless you're actually putting up a 100+ Perform), and everything else is done better by a Beguiler. Your rewrite is a complete failure. I'm sorry if that "hurts your feelings" or if you think that's "not civil" or if you think that anyone criticizing your work "had their wheaties pissed in," but the reality is that that's honest feedback. Making a decent class rewrite requires at least passing consideration for balance. See "A Word on Balance and Fixing Stuff." If something is so weak that no one would ever use it, the option may as well not exist at all (likewise, if something is so powerful that people will always use it, it makes other options effectively not exist, which is bad in basically the same way).

Wow, who pissed in your Wheaties? Seriously.

...

Aha, a valid point - and you were even halfway civil.

Wow, that couldn't be any more rude.

Someone pointing out flaws in your work isn't civil. Right. Grow up, kid. I'm dedicating my time and effort to provide you with useful critical feedback. If you don't want constructive criticism, don't ask for it. If you ask for it, don't complain about valid points when you get them. Saying that abilities you made up are useless garbage (and they are, seriously, if it was a feat no one would ever take it) that you should throw out and rewrite is perfectly civil and constructive.

___

Now then, here is an example of a high level buff spell that I would take levels for (from the revised Seeker of the Song):

Hymn of Strength: A seeker of the song may use the Primal music to give her allies an idealized form. The Hymn of Strength grants all willing allies and their gear within 30 feet a growth of two size categories, with all the benefits and penalties therof, as well as a +2 perfection bonus to Charisma. (+16 strength, +4 Constitution, -4 dex, +4 Natural Armor, 20 foot Reach).

By the way, for perspective, a normal bard that invests in Inspire Courage can get a +8 bonus to *all* attack and damage rolls for his allies (even contributes to volleys and stuff!) on *all* allies for *an entire combat* (song persists 5 rounds after you stop playing) at level 8 (Use Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, Badge of Valor, Song of Creation, masterwork instrument, +2 base, for starters). By level 14... that goes up by about +3 (Vest of legends, another +1 base, and another +1 from SoC). That's right off the top of my head.

How about something that's good at interrupting casters?

Hymn of Spelldeath – See Complete Arcane, Page 58, except that a Hymn of Spelldeath's Refrain may affect spells such as Walls of Force or Prismatic Walls as though it were a Rod of Cancellation..


How about some new options?

Elegy of Bones: The walking dead are irreversibly linked to the magic of the soul, and a Seeker of the Song may use the power of the Primal Music to call upon that link. A Seeker of the Song who sings the Elegy of Bones is invisible to all undead she chooses to be as though under the effects of a Hide from Undead spell, and may make any allies within 30 feet invisibile to all undead. In addition, undead within 50 feet of a SoTS singing the Elegy of Bones are affected as though by a Desecrate spell.
Refrain: The Refrain of an Elegy of Bones allows a Seeker to extert control over the dead. Undead must make a will save or be controlled as though by a Control Undead spell, except that the undead are controlled until the Seeker stops her song.

Notice the difference between these and your songs. The difference is that they're comparable to the power of level-appropriate spell effects, and thus people might actually want to spend levels and combat round actions on them.

For other things worth taking levels for, look at a decent melee (ToB bard or Bardadin) or caster bard (usually with sublime chord) build from CharOp.

 

[Kerrick]

Wow, that couldn't be any more rude.

Pot, meet kettle. I can handle a little sarcasm, but your last post was downright insulting (and I'm sure the mods would agree, if I cared to point it out to them). I don't know why you think honest criticism = snarkiness and sarcasm. Take a look around the forums sometime. Do you see anyone else posting like that?

You know, a Beguiler has light armor... and better defensive abilities than the core bard. How about that?

No, I don't know, because I don't have that book. I have three books. Period.

So he's a lousy striker, and the most fragile person in melee in the game... why is he a decent fighter again?
...
And the ability to take barbarian levels means that the *BARD* is a half-decent fighter and thus a Jack of All Trades? What kind of bad joke are you trying to make here?

Fine, you've managed to drive the point into the ground. Can we move on?

Fine, "cure light wounds wand." Same thing. It's a useless ability for that level, and *no one cares about it.*

So far you're the only one who's bothered to post. But I changed it to Charisma bonus.

Actually, by cutting out Fascinate (which probably should be cut out, it's very abusable) and Inspire Courage (and giving them nothing comparable in return!),

Fasincate's still there, but the DC is 10+1/2 level+Cha, instead of Perform check. That was the abusable part of it. As far as Inspire Courage, I made those stacking abilities (except for Valor, which I can't figure out what to do with).

By the way, for perspective, a normal bard that invests in Inspire Courage can get a +8 bonus to *all* attack and damage rolls for his allies (even contributes to volleys and stuff!) on *all* allies for *an entire combat* (song persists 5 rounds after you stop playing) at level 8 (Use Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, Badge of Valor, Song of Creation, masterwork instrument, +2 base, for starters). By level 14... that goes up by about +3 (Vest of legends, another +1 base, and another +1 from SoC). That's right off the top of my head.

*sigh* Speaking of driving points into the ground... Maybe I should be a little more clear. I want to use core material only. I do not design material to be balanced against non-core books, nor do I design material to incorporate material from non-core books. In short, I do not take non-core material into account at all, because it's not core. I can't assume that Player X has said book, nor can I assume that he'll use it even if he does have it - there's a lot of broken crap in the non-core supplements. Everything you create should be balanced against the core, because that's what every player has. If you want to balance the bard against the beguiler, that's great, but I can't.