Revised Ranger update

jgsugden

Legend
There's always going to be a "last place". One class is always going to end up being the least popular or seen as the least powerful.
If they "fix" the ranger, then someone else just takes its place.
And? If you are bleeding heavily from three wounds, do you decide not to bandage the worst of them because the second worst would then be the worst? Of course not. You bandage because it helps improve the situation.
Plus, it was really an issue in 2015 when the older players and grognards were a larger percentage of the audience. The optimizers who looked and the ranger and found it unappealing. Now, a couple years and several million new players later, that segment of the audience is a much smaller minority. And the percentage of the audience that is happy with the ranger and is playing it as-is has increased.
I think your assumption that new players are not optimizers is a bit hilarious given my experience. Some definitely are. I would not say the percentages have changed with the introduction of new players.

Regardless, my points were:

1.) Having it be played does not mean it is not going to benefit from an improvement to the mechanics.
2.) While an improvement to the mechanics is not necessary to have fun playing the class, the balance of the class would still benefit from it.

Both of those statements are true.

I'd be interested to see someone post what they consider to be an overpowered revised ranger.... I have yet to see one.
 

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CTurbo

Explorer
I'd be interested to see someone post what they consider to be an overpowered revised ranger.... I have yet to see one.


I'm not one of the people that think the Revised Ranger is overpowered as in so strong it's broken and needs to be taken down a notch.... but I do think they went overboard "fixing" the phb Ranger and my biggest issue with the Revised version is how incredibly front loaded it is. They took Natural Explorer too far IMO, and being able to select "humanoids" as your Favored Enemy is too broad. I think you should be able to pick 2 or 3 specific enemies. The phb's Favored Enemy is too weak. Same thing with the phb's Favored Terrain. You should get to pick 2 or 3. Choosing 1 is just not good enough.

The Revised Ranger is still below the Paladin as somebody mentioned above.


Back to the phb Ranger again, I do think it's a bit weak, but I don't think it's so bad that it's not playable. I do agree that the Beastmaster got shafted a bit, and the 14th level Vanish comes on way too late, and lets not forget Foe Slayer which is just a terrible capstone.
 


Laurefindel

Legend
I'd be interested to see someone post what they consider to be an overpowered revised ranger.... I have yet to see one.

In combat? Not many are considering overpowered. But it turned the "ranger is good at exploration pillar of the game" to "ranger basically removes the exploration part of the exploration pillar of the game".

Natural Awareness went from a weak ability to a DM's nightmare, grinding the game to a halt as the DM figures out EVERYTHING in miles around the ranger, and leading to the inevitable "hey! you didn't mention that when I used natural awareness!"

I consider the revised ranger to be overpowered, even if it's comparable to other characters once the initiative is rolled.
 

And? If you are bleeding heavily from three wounds, do you decide not to bandage the worst of them because the second worst would then be the worst? Of course not. You bandage because it helps improve the situation.
But if you're bleeding heavily, you don't just bandage the worst one. You start there and bandage all the wounds.
Which is part of the issue. If you "improve" one class, will there suddenly be pressure to make changes to other classes or problems in the game.

This also assumes that introducing a second version of the ranger will "fix" things and not cause more confusion at tables. Or tension in games when DMs don't allow it. Are the problems it creates greater than the problems it solves?

There are two variant rangers by WotC already out there. There are dozens on the DMsGuild. If someone isn't happy they can easily "fix" things on their own, picking and choosing elements.

I think your assumption that new players are not optimizers is a bit hilarious given my experience. Some definitely are. I would not say the percentages have changed with the introduction of new players.
Oh, there absolutely are.
But is there the same percentage as older fans? I think so. The fans who got into the game via streaming are a lot more focused on roleplaying, character, and story. There's a lot more interest in those aspects of D&D than the crunchy building.
And, most importantly, are the waves of new fans as vocal about their dislike of the ranger? And has the percentage of dissatisfied fans stayed the same or decreased?

But the above is irrelevant. As Crawford points out, despite the ranger being the "worst" class it is NOT the least played class. So many, many people are happy with the class. And changing the class risks making them unhappy or causing issues at their table.
So when you poll the entire audience, the ranger comes out at the bottom. But when people actually make characters, the optimizers don't just avoid the ranger, they avoid all the bottom tier classes, while the remaining 2/3rds or 3/4s of the audience is happy to consider the ranger.


The class is getting played, which means the problem is not a real issue so much as a theoretical issue. Which is the key difference and distinction between something that is a problem in white room design and message board theorycraft and something that is a problem in the real world. Here, on ENWorld, the ranger is broken. Out in actual games, four other classes are more of a problem as they're the ones that aren't seeing play.


1.) Having it be played does not mean it is not going to benefit from an improvement to the mechanics.
Yes... but you could say that about all the classes.
Way of the Four Elements could be fixed. Fighter subclasses could be revised for flavour. The barbarian's exhaustion mechanic could be revisited. The wild mage is unpopular. Plus several feats are seen as problematic, several spells are too strong or weak.

2.) While an improvement to the mechanics is not necessary to have fun playing the class, the balance of the class would still benefit from it.
Again, this could be said about many features and options in the game.

It's almost like perfect balance is impossible and they could spend years revising and tweaking mechanics to make things more balanced and again to make things more fun.
Only to have none of that matter at all because the same number of players will say "Imma gonna play Strider," and roll a ranger irregardless of the mechanics and changes.

I'd be interested to see someone post what they consider to be an overpowered revised ranger.... I have yet to see one.
Halfling on a riding dog two-weapon fighting with lances. Two to three attacks dealing 1d12 damage plus hunter's mark with 40 foot movement.
And at 7th level it can move 20 feet, you can attack, and then it can Disengage and move back 20 feet.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
If anyone really needs a "fixed" ranger, you can do searches on DMsGuild and/or the UnearthedArcana subreddit and find all the fixed rangers you need.

Yes, if you are a "Has to be AL legal!" type of player, you're SOL... but for the rest of you, you have plenty of options.

Search for the "consensus ranger" on Reddit and you'll find a pretty good one IMO.
 


CapnZapp

Legend
Makes me much MORE confident, as they are making their decision off of actually data and play testing, rather than freaking out about what a small number of loud voices on the internet says about it. More companies these days would do well to take a lesson from WoTC in that regard.

Is Ranger one of the weaker DPR options? Sure, but D&D isn't so finely balanced that it makes a difference in play. You could have a party of 4 rangers and they would be fine in keeping up with level appropriate CR, encounters and encounter days.
That is a huge straw man!

Nobody is EVER concerned about the group's ability to survive adventures.

Everything is about the balance within the group - that everyone shares the spotlight.

But all of that still dismiss a very real concern: that a pet without its own action is a shirty shirty implementation that must be upgraded.

Being told "buy an animal" is a slap in the face.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Well, frak them.

The PHB Beastmaster is useless and a pet without its own action is shíte.

Their success is getting to their heads with that dismissive and condescending tweet.

We have one in the party. He's not useless. If you can't make use of them, that's something you might want to work on. Or not.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
That is a huge straw man!

Nobody is EVER concerned about the group's ability to survive adventures.

Everything is about the balance within the group - that everyone shares the spotlight.

But all of that still dismiss a very real concern: that a pet without its own action is a shirty shirty implementation that must be upgraded.

Being told "buy an animal" is a slap in the face.

Yep. Hurts, don't it? You should probably quit playing 5E so it doesn't happen again.
 

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