Rogue/ Cleric or Monk?

[Pat Davis]

Working our way through Hoard of the Dragon Queen and our party is a Ranger, Moon Druid, Lore Bard, Evoker Wizard and a Swashbuckler (me). All level 4

I noticed Swash's biggest boon is at 3 and Panache is nice but with our very chatty bard who is a great roleplayer, I dont see it serving me too much as I struggle with RP'ing. I do like it a lot better than Assassin's L9 stuff...

I'm wondering about MC'ing to add versatility to the party. Monk for damage, lockdown and further skirmish (Drunk or shadow)
Trickery Cleric for Duplicity, spells and healing(?).

My stats (point buy with +2 Dex ASI, Wood Elf)
8, 18, 14, 12, 14, 12

Character is someone who once lived a life of crime, got busted, kept under the watchful eye of a Paladin/holy order and is trying to do good. He isnt the best at it, he masquerades as a priest of various gods to try and get free room and board but otherwise acts nice. Weak backstory but I didnt have long to really do much with it. Fluff wise I would just have a harder time spinning the reason to be a Shadow monk other that dirty fighting and breaking bad again.

 

[Gavin O.]

If you're a level 4 rogue, you should at least get to level 5 before multiclassing. You're one level away from an extra dice of sneak attack and uncanny dodge. Evasion, which you get at rogue level 7, is also very strong.

The problem with multiclassing Monk is that, RAW, you can't use sneak attack with an Unarmed Strike, even on a monk. Sneak attack specifies a finesse weapon, and the martial arts feature doesn't give your unarmes strikes finesse. So while this does give you an attack to use on a minor action, if you miss with your normal action attack, you can't use sneak attack that turn. The other thing that monk provides is a way to escape oppertunity attacks, but Swashbuckler is already providing that for you.

The problem with multiclassing Cleric is now you need a high Wisdom score on top of your high Dex, and you didn't start with a +3 wisdom mod. Even if you get the full 5 ASI, you won't be able to get both those stats to 20 until you're level 20, which means monsters will make their saving throws against your spells more often, and your healing and damage won't be as effective. Invoke Duplicity looks good, the issue is that you have a Con of 14 and you're not proficient in Con saves, so if you get hit its likely your concentration will be broken.

The multiclass I would recommend is going Fighter. One level gets you a Fighting style (archery, dueling, and two-weapon fighting are all good, depending on your build), shield proficiency, and a 1/rest heal. Two levels gets you action surge. Three levels gets you a martial archetype, I would highly reccomend Battle Master. The Riposte maneuver allows you to, four times per short rest, make an attack as a reaction whenever an enemy misses you. Sneak Attack works once per turn, so if you make an attack on someone else's turn, it can trigger a second time. Finally, five levels gets you extra attack, which not only doubles the damage of your attack action, but gives you two opportunities to sneak attack.

All that being said, if you're just looking for an answer to your question, I would go straight rogue.

 

[Pat Davis]

If you're a level 4 rogue, you should at least get to level 5 before multiclassing. You're one level away from an extra dice of sneak attack and uncanny dodge. Evasion, which you get at rogue level 7, is also very strong.

The problem with multiclassing Monk is that, RAW, you can't use sneak attack with an Unarmed Strike, even on a monk. Sneak attack specifies a finesse weapon, and the martial arts feature doesn't give your unarmes strikes finesse. So while this does give you an attack to use on a minor action, if you miss with your normal action attack, you can't use sneak attack that turn. The other thing that monk provides is a way to escape oppertunity attacks, but Swashbuckler is already providing that for you.

The problem with multiclassing Cleric is now you need a high Wisdom score on top of your high Dex, and you didn't start with a +3 wisdom mod. Even if you get the full 5 ASI, you won't be able to get both those stats to 20 until you're level 20, which means monsters will make their saving throws against your spells more often, and your healing and damage won't be as effective. Invoke Duplicity looks good, the issue is that you have a Con of 14 and you're not proficient in Con saves, so if you get hit its likely your concentration will be broken.

The multiclass I would recommend is going Fighter. One level gets you a Fighting style (archery, dueling, and two-weapon fighting are all good, depending on your build), shield proficiency, and a 1/rest heal. Two levels gets you action surge. Three levels gets you a martial archetype, I would highly reccomend Battle Master. The Riposte maneuver allows you to, four times per short rest, make an attack as a reaction whenever an enemy misses you. Sneak Attack works once per turn, so if you make an attack on someone else's turn, it can trigger a second time. Finally, five levels gets you extra attack, which not only doubles the damage of your attack action, but gives you two opportunities to sneak attack.

All that being said, if you're just looking for an answer to your question, I would go straight rogue.

I always see people bring up unarmed strike being unable to trigger SA, but monk weapons (dagger/shortsword) can. and with a Rogue mix, the Martial arts die wont change to above d6 for a long time, if ever, depending on which class is taken further.

 

[Gavin O.]

I always see people bring up unarmed strike being unable to trigger SA, but monk weapons (dagger/shortsword) can. and with a Rogue mix, the Martial arts die wont change to above d6 for a long time, if ever, depending on which class is taken further.

That's true, but the biggest thing that a rogue would gain from MCing monk is the ability to make bonus action attacks, and those must be unarmed strikes. The Martial Arts Bonus action attack and Flurry of Blows both specify that you're making an unarmed strike. What else are you looking for? Step of the wind is already covered for you with Cunning Action. Drunken Master gives you a free disengage which you already have from Swashbukler, and Shadow's spells are alright but with your limited amount of Ki points you won't be able to use them that often.

 

[Eltab]

I have an Arcane Trickster / Trickery Cleric. (total level 9) This build is MAD but fun and (usually) effective.
If RP'ing is not your forte, think about what you can do with the non-Healing spells to mess with Team Monster. For instance, an Illusion can cause them to ignore you or decide to attack somebody else - or even run away. Pass Without Trace allows you to get from here to there without drawing a lot of attention your way. Meld Into Stone gives you a long rest, plus the enemy base will probably come down from Red Alert in the meanwhile and you can sneak out when they don't expect you.

 

[Pat Davis]

That's true, but the biggest thing that a rogue would gain from MCing monk is the ability to make bonus action attacks, and those must be unarmed strikes. The Martial Arts Bonus action attack and Flurry of Blows both specify that you're making an unarmed strike. What else are you looking for? Step of the wind is already covered for you with Cunning Action. Drunken Master gives you a free disengage which you already have from Swashbukler, and Shadow's spells are alright but with your limited amount of Ki points you won't be able to use them that often.

Flurry is a bonus action attack but it doesnt have to be preceded by an unarmed strike, just an attack (still using monk weapons). Hit with shortsword, triggering sneak? Flurry. Miss first attack? Swing second sword.

Monk gets a little more where using a quarterstaff with a bonus action unarmed attack might do more damage, but that isnt finesse without a DM handwave.
For both monk choices, theres the slow fall, missile deflect/catch, extra attack/stunning strike and then their level 6 abilities (redirect attacks into other enemies and a bonus action teleport.)

 

[Gavin O.]

Flurry is a bonus action attack but it doesnt have to be preceded by an unarmed strike, just an attack (still using monk weapons). Hit with shortsword, triggering sneak? Flurry. Miss first attack? Swing second sword.

The triggering attack can be any weapon, but the flurry itself must be an unarmed strike.

The main issue with being a multiclassed monk is that you don't have that many Ki points. Flurry of Blows, Stunning Strike, Redirect Attack, these abilities are all useful, but even if you skip level 5 Rogue, you'll only have 5 Ki points by level 9 when you get stunning strike. If you want to Stunning Strike twice (because the first one fails) and FOB in one round, that's 60% of your ki points gone.

Missile deflect requires your reaction (and Ki, if you want to attack with the missile), and if you're a rogue, you really want to be attacking with your reaction as much as possible to get the extra sneak attack. Extra attack is obviously great, but you can get it from another class. Stunning Strike's save DC is based on your Wisdom modifier, which is a problem given your relatively low Wis and the fact that you can't raise it until level 12 without hurting your Dex. Redirect attack costs a ki point and your reaction, which is a high cost.

 

[Paolo Di Benedetto]

The multiclass I would recommend is going Fighter. One level gets you a Fighting style (archery, dueling, and two-weapon fighting are all good, depending on your build), shield proficiency, and a 1/rest heal. Two levels gets you action surge. Three levels gets you a martial archetype, I would highly reccomend Battle Master. The Riposte maneuver allows you to, four times per short rest, make an attack as a reaction whenever an enemy misses you. Sneak Attack works once per turn, so if you make an attack on someone else's turn, it can trigger a second time. Finally, five levels gets you extra attack, which not only doubles the damage of your attack action, but gives you two opportunities to sneak attack.

That's something that id like to try. The rogue/fighter multiclass. Actually my rogue is lv 1, the stat are 10 18 14 12 11 12 (did i make a good choice? Till saturday i can still change). I'm Using the rogue archetype: swashbuckler and we gonna uplevelling kinda fast. My group is made by a barbarian, a druid, a sorcerer and my rogue. When you think i should start multiclassing into fighter? I build it as a TWF and actually he has dodge and TWF as feats (human). I choosed kukri as war weapon proficiency from the swashbuckler (or better throwing axe?). I also have the opportunity to use the prestige class of vekeshi excoriant (or the polyhistor if i choose martial scientist), as zeitgeist is our adventure path, but looks better just multiclassing into fighter, what do u think?

PS If u have to choose only between multiclassing in cleric, monk or stay straight rogue, than my opinion is go straight rogue. If u want use the multiclassing just for fun than its different, but if u need to optimize than straight rogue its better.

 

[Gavin O.]

That's something that id like to try. The rogue/fighter multiclass. Actually my rogue is lv 1, the stat are 10 18 14 12 11 12 (did i make a good choice? Till saturday i can still change). I'm Using the rogue archetype: swashbuckler and we gonna uplevelling kinda fast. My group is made by a barbarian, a druid, a sorcerer and my rogue. When you think i should start multiclassing into fighter? I build it as a TWF and actually he has dodge and TWF as feats (human). I choosed kukri as war weapon proficiency from the swashbuckler (or better throwing axe?). I also have the opportunity to use the prestige class of vekeshi excoriant (or the polyhistor if i choose martial scientist), as zeitgeist is our adventure path, but looks better just multiclassing into fighter, what do u think?

PS If u have to choose only between multiclassing in cleric, monk or stay straight rogue, than my opinion is go straight rogue. If u want use the multiclassing just for fun than its different, but if u need to optimize than straight rogue its better.

The biggest feature of the Swashbuckler rogue (Charisma bonus to intiative) Seems a bit wasted on a character with only +1 to Cha. I'd reccomend going Assassin or arcane trickster instead, you can play an Arcane Trickster even without high Int, taking only utility spells. As a general rule, most classes have an enormous power spike at level 5. For full casters, they get their Level 3 spell slot, for Full melee characters, they get Extra Attack. It's a little different for Rogue, since all your get is an extra dice of sneak attack and uncanny dodge. I would reccomend either multiclassing after level 3, when you first get your roguish archetype, or after level 7 when you get Evasion.

 

[Antonio Di Benedetto]

The biggest feature of the Swashbuckler rogue (Charisma bonus to intiative) Seems a bit wasted on a character with only +1 to Cha. I'd reccomend going Assassin or arcane trickster instead, you can play an Arcane Trickster even without high Int, taking only utility spells. As a general rule, most classes have an enormous power spike at level 5. For full casters, they get their Level 3 spell slot, for Full melee characters, they get Extra Attack. It's a little different for Rogue, since all your get is an extra dice of sneak attack and uncanny dodge. I would reccomend either multiclassing after level 3, when you first get your roguish archetype, or after level 7 when you get Evasion.

Sorry, for a mystake I was posting with my dad Google account lol. Anyway I think there was a misunderstanding bcs my english is kinda bad. I m not talking about multiclassing rogue/swashbuckler, im talking about the rogue's archetype of swashbuckler in pathfinder (the one that have "Daring" and "martial training", so get one more war weapon and a bonus to acrobatics and fear checks. I cant see anywhere the bonus to initiative by cha on this archetype) that I thought to multiclass into fighter. The build is made for use the combo between canny tumble and circling mongoose, moving (5 ft), using acrobatics for the opportunity attacks that they try to deal and have attack of opportunity every time they miss. Thats why (the acrobatics bonus) I choosed the rogue's archetype of swashbuckler, not the swashbuckler hybrid class. Assassin is really good? Bcs when I readed about it looks not so usefull, but I can be wrong as I never played it. Arcane trickster I think need minor and major magic as feats and I dont know if I have space in this build, how can I put them inside? My feats actually will be dodge and TWF, than weapon focus, than mobility, than reciliency, canny tumble, spring attack (useless for my build but necessary for circling mongoose, and than circling mongoose at 8. How can I go from here?