Rogue Mastermind Archetype Up, Courtesy of Extra Life

They stole my my help as a bonus action idea...

 

[Orlax]

Why would a corrupt noble want to hire someone to forge a document upon hearing that she did a bad enough job of forging a document to end up in prison?

How badly did you fail? Was it a good forgery, but the guard happened to be really good about seeing the forgery? Was it like the character got a 21 on his forgery check but the guard managed to get the 21 investigation to notice the forgery?

My assumption being that the player wouldn't attempt to bring a poor quality forgery to try and break in to the palace. See forgery is excellent because it's a crafting skill (actually a toolkit if I'm not mistaken) you can keep trying till you either run out of time, run out of materials, or get it to a point where you're confident in bringing it in front of the people you are attempting to dupe.

That's why I was readily prepared with a possible out to keep the story and plot flowing that didn't involve murdering a bunch of people.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yes I have been lucky with my dm's, and so have my players, sorry your dm's have brought you to the viewpoint that combat is the only measure by which characters should be measured or that combat is the only measurement that actually matters.

Except that that...isn't what I said. I said that *failure at skill checks makes future skill checks harder,* and that *most DMs don't understand how probability works, making skills far more difficult than they should/could be.*

That doesn't mean combat is "the only measurement that actually matters." It means that combat is the only measurement where you don't have to fear a botched roll or two (after the first few levels anyway...), and where the probabilities are sufficiently well-defined that DM perceptions of how "hard" or "easy" something should be (which rarely even work as desired, let alone as they "should") cannot accidentally ruin a perfectly reasonable plan. Combat is both well-defined and generally provides both opportunity and resources specifically dedicated to mitigating the results of unlucky rolls (whether failed PC rolls or successful enemy rolls). Non-combat is so minimally defined that, in general, it is by far the more difficult, less successful, and less "overtly" rewarding (many of the benefits of non-combat are intangible or highly delayed).

 

[Hussar]

I rarely have failed checks that lead directly to combat.

Really? You've never had a PC fail a stealth check and get attacked? That's the easiest example I can think of. Or perhaps a diplomacy check with a hostile faction that attacks? Rarely?

Party is being tracked by hungry bears, druid drops a Speak with Animals in time to try to reason with the bears. Druid rolls badly on his diplomacy check and what? The bears just wander away?

 

[Kalshane]

Obviously, the result of failed social checks is going to vary based on the circumstances.

I'm currently running a Rise of the Runelords campaign. At one point, the party decided to investigate one of their leads in a murder investigation by forging documents to claim they were handling a nobleman's affairs while he was abroad. They brought these documents to the trade company the nobleman had had dealings with, but the person in charge of that company had already learned from other sources the nobleman was deceased and determined the documents were a forgery. Rather than immediately calling for the guard, he offered them an exchange of information. The party's answers to his questions gave him information to increase his own sphere of influence, while his answers to the party's questions gave them leads in their own investigation.

Of course, the NPC in this case was rather unscrupulous and worked for a rather shifty organization (though the general public thought them respectable) so that situation isn't always going to come up, but it is an example of failed rolls not being an automatic failure. (And really, the party rolled really well, he just rolled better and had some magical assistance.)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Obviously, the result of failed social checks is going to vary based on the circumstances.

I'm currently running a Rise of the Runelords campaign. At one point, the party decided to investigate one of their leads in a murder investigation by forging documents to claim they were handling a nobleman's affairs while he was abroad. They brought these documents to the trade company the nobleman had had dealings with, but the person in charge of that company had already learned from other sources the nobleman was deceased and determined the documents were a forgery. Rather than immediately calling for the guard, he offered them an exchange of information. The party's answers to his questions gave him information to increase his own sphere of influence, while his answers to the party's questions gave them leads in their own investigation.

Of course, the NPC in this case was rather unscrupulous and worked for a rather shifty organization (though the general public thought them respectable) so that situation isn't always going to come up, but it is an example of failed rolls not being an automatic failure. (And really, the party rolled really well, he just rolled better and had some magical assistance.)

On the subject of failed rolls, two other (non-social) examples of where a failed roll can turn out better than a success are:

1.) If you attack the mysterious figure in the darkened doorway, and it turns out to actually be your brother, you'll be glad you missed.
2.) If your point man is sneaking along stealthily, and so are the monsters, and everybody is sneaking so successfully that they don't even notice each other--you might as well not even have a point man at all. The monsters will run right into your main body with no warning or chance to prepare, and you'll probably wind up wishing that your point guy had been a little clumsier so the monsters revealed themselves sooner when only one guy was in danger instead of a whole caravan.

A successful roll means that the PC succeeded in what he was trying to accomplish. It does not in any way, shape, or form guarantee a good outcome from his successful attempt.