Rogue vs Avenger

[Flipguarder]

If you like having to work for your advantage, and sometimes destroying the enemy in one hit, then the rogue is for you.

If you like rolling tons of dice, and like consistent damage, the avenger is for you.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Shifting powers, pulling powers, teleport powers....... Oath of the Final Duel is pretty good. It also doesn't hurt to have a friendly Controller in the room.

My Pursuit Avenger loves Sequestering Strike like it was a bunny named George. Something needs to be OTed? Sequestering Strike! Pesky punk is away from the homicidal dwarf melee ranger? Sequestering Strike!

Brad

 

[DracoSuave]

One thing I find funny about Rogue vs Avenger DPR calculations, is that it assumes the Rogue has CA, and that the Avenger does not.

 

[Garthanos]

One thing I find funny about Rogue vs Avenger DPR calculations, is that it assumes the Rogue has CA, and that the Avenger does not.

The unity avenger seems likely to have it... but umm the other guys?

 

[DracoSuave]

Avengers have multiple powers that grant them Combat Advantage, comparable to a rogue, specific builds that are designed to milk CA, are as mobile as a rogue, and while a rogue will try to go into the enemy lines to Combat Advantage, an Avenger does it by pulling the enemy -into- friendly fire. This doesn't matter if he's ret, persuing, OR unity.

I think that assuming a rogue has combat advantage all the time just because he has sneak attack is either an erroneous assumption, or it is safe to assume a class that can apply it as easily as a rogue -will-.

EDIT: I had a party that had this same fallacy. The warlord had a choice between something that granted combat advantage and something that gave +1 to hit. One guy was saying 'Well, we don't have a rogue, so the +1 is better. My retort was '+2 is greater than +1. Seriously. Combat Advantage=good.'

 

[Saeviomagy]

Avengers have multiple powers that grant them Combat Advantage, comparable to a rogue, specific builds that are designed to milk CA, are as mobile as a rogue, and while a rogue will try to go into the enemy lines to Combat Advantage, an Avenger does it by pulling the enemy -into- friendly fire. This doesn't matter if he's ret, persuing, OR unity.

I think that assuming a rogue has combat advantage all the time just because he has sneak attack is either an erroneous assumption, or it is safe to assume a class that can apply it as easily as a rogue -will-.

EDIT: I had a party that had this same fallacy. The warlord had a choice between something that granted combat advantage and something that gave +1 to hit. One guy was saying 'Well, we don't have a rogue, so the +1 is better. My retort was '+2 is greater than +1. Seriously. Combat Advantage=good.'

Yeah, that's a wierd one. If anything, not having a rogue makes getting CA granters MORE necessary, because the rogue won't be spending all his time manufacturing it...

It's true that an avenger will get CA a lot, and that it should definately be included in any damage comparisons.

That said, the avenger benefits less from CA than most, unless his attack bonus is quite low. Where other characters who might hit on an 11+ would get a 20% damage boost from CA, his double roll mechanic means the avenger gets 12%, and this diminishes rapidly as his attack roll increases. Rogues are liable to be getting 100% or more of a bonus from CA.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, that depends. If you'd need less than 11 to hit -without- combat advantage, then combat advantage adds less than 0.10 to your hit probability. If you need higher than 11, then it adds -more- than 0.10.

This is actually relevant... for example, a level 30 Avenger with 30 Wisdom, +6 weapon, Expertise, will have +37 to attack. Vecna has 49 AC. Thusly, Combat Advantage gives the full 0.10 swing in benefit.

Against even level monsters, it's different, but against higher level stuff it might be -very- relevant.

 

[Ryujin]

Well, that depends. If you'd need less than 11 to hit -without- combat advantage, then combat advantage adds less than 0.10 to your hit probability. If you need higher than 11, then it adds -more- than 0.10.

This is actually relevant... for example, a level 30 Avenger with 30 Wisdom, +6 weapon, Expertise, will have +37 to attack. Vecna has 49 AC. Thusly, Combat Advantage gives the full 0.10 swing in benefit.

Against even level monsters, it's different, but against higher level stuff it might be -very- relevant.

And I would think that the Avenger is going to tend to try and take out the biggest baddie on the block, so it becomes a likelihood.

 

[DracoSuave]

And I would think that the Avenger is going to tend to try and take out the biggest baddie on the block, so it becomes a likelihood.

This is the sort of Avenger I want to have parties with.

 

[Sgt_Shock]

I'm pretty sure the WotC thread I read included fair amounts of CA for both classes. It's just bad mathcraft if it didn't.