Rogue vs Detect Magic - The Same Old Story Spun a Different Way

[severed_ronin]

Alright, so I'll just go ahead and straight out give where I'm coming from here. I know this question has been beat into the ground like the dead horse and then proceeded to move onto beating the horse's owner with it, but I'm going more in-depth than any of the arguments I've seen before. Here's the background:

My character, a Dark Elf Rogue, is traveling through the World's Largest Dungeon with a Half-Elf Ranger, a Half-Elf Sorcerer, and a Half-Devil Fighter-Warlock. We came to an area where the Half-Devil Fighter-Warlock read some Infernal script, went berserk, transformed into his Devil Form, and began berserking on us. After throwing out some nice tactics, we beat my buddy's character with subdual damage and won ourselves the largest chunk of XP we've gotten thus far. Well, later talks and jokes and discussion onward, we start discussing something. One of his invocations is Devil's Sight (which allows him to see through my magical Darkness when I drop it) and his class ability granted by Warlock which is Detect Magic AT WILL. What he does for us every morning when he wakes up is start up his Detect Magic, Devil Sight, and all that noise in order for us to proceed through the dungeon.

Well, like I said, I started thinking more and more on it, mainly due to mine and his quips to each other, and he brought up the fact that no matter how high my Hide ability may be, I still light up like a rock concert to his Detect Magic eyes, so he'd always be able to see me. My rogue has a Ring of Invisibilty, a Cloak of Elvenkind, high ranks in Hide, as well as other magical items that not only amp my Hide abilities up, but other magic items as well. The rest of the party has their magic items too. My rogue's Hide is effectively 35 BEFORE I ever roll my d20. So that leads to the question we've been building up to: Is my rogue capable of hiding from his character? Can a rogue with magic items lighting him up when he ISN'T hiding successfully HIDE against an opponent who is constantly Detecting Magic. What should be rules regarding this? What are the rules saying about this? Many people have come up with their own ideas about it and I'd like to see what all of you have to say about it.

My opinion is that the rogue should have to use two checks, Use Magic Device in order to try and suppress the aura (not the magic, just the aura), and then proceed to actively hide. This rogue's check would be countered by the foe's (whether friendly or otherwise) Spot check. If the rogue is carrying an item of significant power (such as an Artifact) this should give some sort of penalty to his check and a bonus to the opposing check. I have more ideas on it but I feel I've ranted enough. I'd like to hear everyone else's take on the subject. Please feel free to comment with your own opinions and please do not bash on each other's ideas. Trolls are abundant enough as it is without us summoning up Web Trolls. Thank you.

(Also, below I have included a few links to a couple of the websites I went to in order to ascertain various opinions, ideas, and research.)


Candlekeep Forum - Detect Magic and Illusions/Invisibility

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboard...rR PG/rules/detectMagicMagicTrapsInvisibility

Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible

 

[Nagol]

Without adjusting RAW,yes you can, but he can find you in 3-6 rounds, depending on how lucky he is if you're within 60' and he is actively detecting for magic..

Detect Magic does not act as sight. It provides information regarding a 90 degree cone. Information is only provided while the character is concentrating on receiving it. The first round of concentration only provides a 'ping' that magic exists within the cone. It takes 2 more rounds of concentration for the location to become apparent.

Unfortunately, UMD does not provide an ability to suppress auras. You could get a wand of Undetectable Aura or Misdirection, but you'd have to use the effect on every magic item -- tedious and extremely expensive. Non-detection is a valuable ability for someone who wants to remain private, but it can be punched through.

 

[Pbartender]

Without adjusting RAW,yes you can, but he can find you in 3-6 rounds, depending on how lucky he is if you're within 60' and he is actively detecting for magic..

Detect Magic does not act as sight. It provides information regarding a 90 degree cone. Information is only provided while the character is concentrating on receiving it. The first round of concentration only provides a 'ping' that magic exists within the cone. It takes 2 more rounds of concentration for the location to become apparent.

Unfortunately, UMD does not provide an ability to suppress auras. You could get a wand of Undetectable Aura or Misdirection, but you'd have to use the effect on every magic item -- tedious and extremely expensive. Non-detection is a valuable ability for someone who wants to remain private, but it can be punched through.

Nagol's got it right... He'd have to spend several rounds concentrating and scanning the area to pin-point the location of your rogue. Here is the relevant text in the SRD.

You detect magical auras. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

1st Round
Presence or absence of magical auras.

2nd Round
Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.

3rd Round
The strength and location of each aura. If the items or creatures bearing the auras are in line of sight, you can make Spellcraft skill checks to determine the school of magic involved in each. (Make one check per aura; DC 15 + spell level, or 15 + half caster level for a nonspell effect.)

Furthermore, don't forget that concentration requires a standard action to maintain. He's wasting actions trying to find you, while you simply make a stealth move every couple of rounds to stay outside the 60' cone he's scanning.

 

[severed_ronin]

Without adjusting the RAW, I agree with you. I'm going to skip the whole "RAW makes it seem overpowered" speech, because that's another part of the discussion that has been beat into the ground. What I would like to talk about is your thoughts (and others, people, don't be afraid) on what you think would make it streamlined to work better. Some sort of balance between the two. As I was reading more and more into it, I realized that our Warlock associate has been treating Detect Magic more like Arcane Sight than anything. This isn't a problem for me AS LONG AS he isn't attacking me, but for integrity's sake, it needs to be addressed now. If I don't argue his tactics now, then, gods forbid, he goes berserk on us again, he'll argue that he sees me and whatnot. Typical stuff. I'm trying to delve more into the mechanics here.

As for the Use Magic Device, I feel that there could be a potential there for tweaking something into it that should let you minimize the aura. As for the Hide, its like I stated before, an opposed Hide and Spot check. If he went berserk on us, I guarantee that I wouldn't be in the same spot for too long no matter which square it was in that he was concentrating. Right behind the enemy into the sweet spot just to the left of the spine, fourth lumbar down.

But, taking my own game out of it, I just feel there should be someway a Level 20 Rogue can foil the Detect Magic/Arcane Sight of lower level caster. As I said, I'm trying to find a balance here where that epic Rogue can take out a lower level caster without breaking the system and allowing any petty thief to sneak into the Mage Tower and pilfer his goods. I do realize this is why casters prepare other spells, but that is why I stated that my companion was a Warlock (because he can Detect Magic at will).

Taking the Detect Magic at will part of it, let's hypothesize this. A caster casts Greater Arcane Sight/Arcane Sight/Detect Magic on himself and follows it up with Permanency. What now is the rogue with magic items to do? I would love to hear your ideas on this and your own personal opinions. Again, thank you for your patience, and your continued dedication to the game.

 

[roguerouge]

Yeah, any time a caster is wasting three standard actions to pinpoint you, you win. The fact is that you can close and full sneak attack before you can be pinpointed makes the utility of this tactic very limited.

In addition, a lower level spell should never trump a higher level spell, such as See Invisibility, which the action economy cost ensures.

But I have a question: if the invisible rogue with magic items MOVES after the third round of detect magic, does the process reset to round one? Or is the caster able to pinpoint all magic auras on the move in rounds 4+?

 

[Nagol]

Yeah, any time a caster is wasting three standard actions to pinpoint you, you win. The fact is that you can close and full sneak attack before you can be pinpointed makes the utility of this tactic very limited.

In addition, a lower level spell should never trump a higher level spell, such as See Invisibility, which the action economy cost ensures.

But I have a question: if the invisible rogue with magic items MOVES after the third round of detect magic, does the process reset to round one? Or is the caster able to pinpoint all magic auras on the move in rounds 4+?

It resets. The caster has to guess which new 90 degree cone to scan and the scanning process starts over.

 

[Nagol]

<snip>

As for the Use Magic Device, I feel that there could be a potential there for tweaking something into it that should let you minimize the aura. As for the Hide, its like I stated before, an opposed Hide and Spot check. If he went berserk on us, I guarantee that I wouldn't be in the same spot for too long no matter which square it was in that he was concentrating. Right behind the enemy into the sweet spot just to the left of the spine, fourth lumbar down.

You are potentially adding capability to an already highly powered skill.

But, taking my own game out of it, I just feel there should be someway a Level 20 Rogue can foil the Detect Magic/Arcane Sight of lower level caster. As I said, I'm trying to find a balance here where that epic Rogue can take out a lower level caster without breaking the system and allowing any petty thief to sneak into the Mage Tower and pilfer his goods. I do realize this is why casters prepare other spells, but that is why I stated that my companion was a Warlock (because he can Detect Magic at will).

There are several ways a 20th level Rogue can foil lower level casters either through magic items or prestige class abilities.

Taking the Detect Magic at will part of it, let's hypothesize this. A caster casts Greater Arcane Sight/Arcane Sight/Detect Magic on himself and follows it up with Permanency. What now is the rogue with magic items to do? I would love to hear your ideas on this and your own personal opinions. Again, thank you for your patience, and your continued dedication to the game.

Take the magic item off? Get a cover with thinly sheeted lead to put over his haversack? Get a magic item like I suggested above? Sneak Attack the caster so the detection doesn't matter? Stay out of the presence of such a caster?

Arcane Sight augments your normal sight so it doesn't work versus hidden opponents since you can't see them. Detect Magic can eventually find them as I described above if the hidden character stays still, but it take long enough that most encounters are complete before it matters.

High level wizards, if they want to find you, will cast Greater Scrying and see your exact location and everything within 10' for the next hour / level regardless of your tactics for the cost of a standard action.

 

[Pbartender]

A caster casts Greater Arcane Sight/Arcane Sight/Detect Magic on himself and follows it up with Permanency. What now is the rogue with magic items to do? I would love to hear your ideas on this and your own personal opinions. Again, thank you for your patience, and your continued dedication to the game.

First, note that Greater Arcane Sight cannot be made permanent.

Second, invest in a bow.

Detect Magic has a range of 60', Arcane Sight 120'. A bog standard shortbow has a maximum range of 600'.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Second, invest in a bow.

You must spread some Experience Points around before giving it to Pbartender again

Can someone cover me? This is priceless.

 

[coyote6]

Ever heard of the spells nondetection and misdirection? Misdirection can be especially handy -- misdirect on to a pebble, and you won't detect as anything but a rock.

IIRC, Arms & Equipment Guide (along with at least one adventure) had a ring of misdirection, too, though the ring misdirected back at the caster.