D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Soulknife_Infiltrator]

Rogues start with 4 skills and expertise in 2 skills, from level 1. They get 2 more expertise at 6th level and then reliable talent at 7th. Their subclasses then further boost their skills, with Arcane Trickster getting cantrips and spells which can boost skills and other out of combat elements, Assassin getting bonus proficiencies and Infiltration Expertise, Thief gets loads of out of combat skills and abilities, and Swashbuckler is the only subclass that doesn't have out of combat abilities from the subclass.

Compare this to the fighter, which gets 2 skills to start, Action Surge, Second Wind to ability checks a very limited number of times per day. For Subclasses, Battlemaster gets you 1 skill, Brawler was nixed, Champion gets you Remarkable Athlete, and Eldritch Knight gets you cantrips and spells.

In the end, Rogue clearly outclasses the Fighter for out of combat stuff. Fighter got a boost in that realm but it's still not close to Rogue.

You see, skill proficiencies provides you nothing but merely a +2/+3 in your checks. You're only better than others in two specific skill with 10%~15%. Besides that, Bard, Ranger also has Expertise, JoAT, PWT, and a D10(5.5) on failed skills checks are much stronger than Expertise statistically. Reliable Talent is the only way they exceed other classes in skills, but Level7 still means The End for many campaigns.

And, I mean, I really wonder have you really read my post and do the basic math yourself?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Rogues need a class intrinsic, reliable way to get off turn attacks. That way the damage floor raises, but not the cap.

They also need something like reliable talent that comes earlier. Or rework reliable talent so it comes earlier but does not make all expertised checks auto successes.
I do like the barbarian treat all roll totals of x and lower as STR score more than setting dice to numbers.
I'd probably go as far as making reliable talent automatically set to 10, 15, 20 at different levels.
I also don't like that rogue at some points have expertise in nearly every skill. I'd just give them some bonus skills at some levels. Maybe whenever they get expertise, they also gain 2 new other skills.

Edit: please lets not forget, the playtest is not the final version. Numbers will change. With the updated monk and barbarian and fighter, I am pretty sure the rogue is not left behind in the final game.

 

[Vikingkingq]

It is not - he keeps a running tally for all the classes they come out and continues the comparison. Rogues continue to rank very well.


It really wasn't. The changes since then are relatively minor.

I don’t agree that the changes were minor. However, if he’s done an up to date full comparison, I’ll certainly check it out - I’m a subscriber and watch all of his videos when they come out on YouTube, and I don’t remember seeing one. Was this something on his Discord or Patreon or something?

 

[Vikingkingq]

That would, apparently, be nearly meaningless to the way they are changing tool use.

How are they changing tool use? I’ve looked around and can’t find anything definitive from the devs.

 

[Mistwell]

You see, skill proficiencies provides you nothing but merely a +2/+3 in your checks. You're only better than others in two specific skill with 10%~15%. Besides that, Bard, Ranger also has Expertise, JoAT, PWT, and a D10(5.5) on failed skills checks are much stronger than Expertise statistically. Reliable Talent is the only way they exceed other classes in skills, but Level7 still means The End for many campaigns.

And, I mean, I really wonder have you really read my post and do the basic math yourself?

Wow nice moving target. I was responding to the claim the fighter was better at skills, so you respond with Bard and Ranger?

You're again mentioning burst bonus to skills which is very limited in uses per day while the rogue can do it all day long - which is highly relevant to out of combat which often can involved half a dozen checks in a single out of combat period.

I already linked you to the math, from a guy who does this for a living, and you won't even look at it or comment on it and just keep repeating essentially "nuh uh I am right because I am right so there."

This conversation seems to be going nowhere. But the fact that the rogue registered extremely high approval was the end of this argument right from the beginning. There is no argument - it's a settled topic. They're no longer even collecting opinions on the rogue.

 

[Mistwell]

I don’t agree that the changes were minor. However, if he’s done an up to date full comparison, I’ll certainly check it out - I’m a subscriber and watch all of his videos when they come out on YouTube, and I don’t remember seeing one. Was this something on his Discord or Patreon or something?

I almost exclusively watch on Patreon but when he does his calculations for each class at 13th level he still includes all the prior ones on the chart for the comparison. Rogue continues to do well. Barbarians clearly beat them, but they're right there with fighter.

 

[Mistwell]

How are they changing tool use? I’ve looked around and can’t find anything definitive from the devs.

They have not really said it, they just subtly removed stuff here and there about tools. It remains unclear what they're doing but it does seem like it will be something like tool proficiency gives you advantage but you no longer make a tool use check.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

First of all, Treantmonk's Video was months ago while other Martials weren't boosted like now.
Secondly, if those numbers in the video are "74% over baseline", then the problem is other Martials and Half-Casters are doing "150~200% over baseline". The baseline means nothing if the gap has been that large. Go and try a lightly optimized Warlock and you'll see.
Thirdly, Rogue was that great when their Skills are much better than everyone. But after UA8, not anymore. And those boosts are good ones to those classes, which leaves Rogue in need of another update.

I would not take the classes that now are 200% above baseline too seriously.
WotC has just learned that everything that looks balanced flops in surveys.

 

[Soulknife_Infiltrator]

Wow nice moving target. I was responding to the claim the fighter was better at skills, so you respond with Bard and Ranger?

You're again mentioning burst bonus to skills which is very limited in uses per day while the rogue can do it all day long - which is highly relevant to out of combat which often can involved half a dozen checks in a single out of combat period.

I already linked you to the math, from a guy who does this for a living, and you won't even look at it or comment on it and just keep repeating essentially "nuh uh I am right because I am right so there."

This conversation seems to be going nowhere. But the fact that the rogue registered extremely high approval was the end of this argument right from the beginning. There is no argument - it's a settled topic. They're no longer even collecting opinions on the rogue.

Actually, you're the one who's been refusing to see the MATH, I've already write those down on my post of How Second Wind Better Than Rogue In Skills before Level7, and you refused to even look about it, and I have no interest repeating myself again. But since you're asking, here's what it is:
In my recent playtest with my friends, the new Fighter with Second-Wind and without any intentionally leaning into skills, had outpaced my Thief Rogue in skill checks before level7, which was a really surprising result to me.
There aren't so many failed skill checks between short-rests at all, let alone it costs nothing if that D10 isn't making you pass. But before level 7, all I've got was a few more +2/3 to skills. Nothing could compared to +D10 to skills that you've failed. The only Rogue I can think of to compete this is Soulknife Rogue.

And again, two more +10% isn't helping when your "opponent" is a D10 to every failed skills, and it also costs nothing if it's been a failure again. It's just Soulknife Rogue being mixed into Fighters.

Lastly, I've already said that your data is out-dated, and there's no comparison made by Treantmonk after UA8.

It's OUTDATED.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

giving them the optional rule in Xanathar’s about combining tool and skill proficiencies

This is already a base rule in OneDnD.