D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[UngeheuerLich]

Actually, you're the one who's been refusing to see the MATH, I've already write those down on my post of How Second Wind Better Than Rogue In Skills before Level7, and you refused to even look about it, and I have no interest repeating myself again. But since you're asking, here's what it is:
In my recent playtest with my friends, the new Fighter with Second-Wind and without any intentionally leaning into skills, had outpaced my Thief Rogue in skill checks before level7, which was a really surprising result to me.
There aren't so many failed skill checks between short-rests at all, let alone it costs nothing if that D10 isn't making you pass. But before level 7, all I've got was a few more +2/3 to skills. Nothing could compared to +D10 to skills that you've failed. The only Rogue I can think of to compete this is Soulknife Rogue.

And again, two more +10% isn't helping when your "opponent" is a D10 to every failed skills, and it also costs nothing if it's been a failure again. It's just Soulknife Rogue being mixed into Fighters.

Lastly, I've already said that your data is out-dated, and there's no comparison made by Treantmonk after UA8.

It's OUTDATED.

A d10 (average +5.5) on fails is strong. But +2/+3 all the time is also good. And always resource free.
And only having 1 or 2 skill checks between encounters is not math, its an anecdote. I'd also say: that +1d10 does not help a lot when doing rogue things*. It is just enough to not fail when it is important.

*infiltration, scouting, finding and disabling traps. Anything that probably involves several roles.

Edit: note that I don't like "not spend on a failure roll" because there are rolls that are neither failures nor successes (like finding traps when none is present).

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

For Subclasses, Battlemaster gets you 1 skill, Brawler was nixed, Champion gets you Remarkable Athlete, and Eldritch Knight gets you cantrips and spells.

You mean Battlemaster gets +1d8 to multiple skills, which stacks with Tactical Mind's +1d10, and Rune Knight has advantage to a whole bunch of skills.

 

[Soulknife_Infiltrator]

A d10 (average +5.5) on fails is strong. But +2/+3 all the time is also good. And always resource free.
And only having 1 or 2 skill checks between encounters is not math, its an anecdote. I'd also say: that +1d10 does not help a lot when doing rogue things*. It is just enough to not fail when it is important.

*infiltration, scouting, finding and disabling traps. Anything that probably involves several roles.

I don't disagree. +2/+3 all the time has always been good. It's just getting less and less valuable when it being not enough in crucial checks. Their current skill powers just can't compensate their damage anymore, especially when the damage floor has been raised in OneD&D while Rogue benefits from it less than others.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

A d10 (average +5.5) on fails is strong. But +2/+3 all the time is also good. And always resource free.

That would require multiple checks between short rests to be relevant. Which is reasonable in a dungeon, but not when the party is out and about in a city or wilderness. It's just a free better Expertise until lv17 on any check.

that +1d10 does not help a lot when doing rogue things*.

Dex Fighters with Stealth/Sleight of Hand proficiency easily exist, and with Tactical Mind they are better than a Rogue with Expertise for the checks that matter. And they can apply it to any skill. Neither class has a feature that gets them anything from Int/Wis/Cha, so the tertiary attributes themselves aren't tipped in the Rogue's favor either (with a special exception for Cha and Swashbuckler).

Anyway, really, if your concept is being skilled, then a core part of that will be a multiclass Fighter2/Rogue1. Though, this is less of a commitment from the Fighter main's part than if a Rogue main wants to get to their Cunning Strikes any time soon.

 

[Vikingkingq]

I almost exclusively watch on Patreon but when he does his calculations for each class at 13th level he still includes all the prior ones on the chart for the comparison. Rogue continues to do well. Barbarians clearly beat them, but they're right there with fighter.

Is there a particular video you could recommend?

 

[Vikingkingq]

This is already a base rule in OneDnD.

Ah, I see. It got changed in Playtest 5! I must have missed it because the rule was different in 1-4.

Still, it's different from what I was recommending - which was to change it for Rogues, not for all other classes. As it stands, anyone who takes a background with Thieves' Tool Proficiency will be close to par with the Rogue when it comes to traps and locks - while the Rogue won't necessarily be on par with them when it comes to social and exploration checks.

 

[DEFCON 1]

If both sides are claiming correctness... some saying the Rogue is awesome and overpowered and other saying it sucks and is underpowered... then it seems pretty obvious that WotC has the class right where they want it. Each respondant might be correct for their own table... but for the gaming community on the whole, the default middle is just fine.

 

[Vikingkingq]

If both sides are claiming correctness... some saying the Rogue is awesome and overpowered and other saying it sucks and is underpowered... then it seems pretty obvious that WotC has the class right where they want it. Each respondant might be correct for their own table... but for the gaming community on the whole, the default middle is just fine.

That assumes both sides are equally on the money - it could also be that one side or the other is just wrong. I'm certainly going to go looking through Treantmonk's videos to see if I can find an updated calculation, but it should be possible to compare the two sets of calculations and see which one did it better.

 

[aco175]

I vote to give rogues Pack Tactics- but only if it blocks them from ever multiclassing. Crud, that will put fighters at the bottom now- which we cannot have since they are called fighters and that is their thing. I seem to remember the 80s PSA about doing drugs so I can work longer, so I can make more money... So I can do more drugs.

 

[Mistwell]

Actually, you're the one who's been refusing to see the MATH, I've already write those down on my post of How Second Wind Better Than Rogue In Skills before Level7, and you refused to even look about it, and I have no interest repeating myself again. But since you're asking, here's what it is:
In my recent playtest with my friends, the new Fighter with Second-Wind and without any intentionally leaning into skills, had outpaced my Thief Rogue in skill checks before level7, which was a really surprising result to me.
There aren't so many failed skill checks between short-rests at all, let alone it costs nothing if that D10 isn't making you pass. But before level 7, all I've got was a few more +2/3 to skills. Nothing could compared to +D10 to skills that you've failed. The only Rogue I can think of to compete this is Soulknife Rogue.

And again, two more +10% isn't helping when your "opponent" is a D10 to every failed skills, and it also costs nothing if it's been a failure again. It's just Soulknife Rogue being mixed into Fighters.

Lastly, I've already said that your data is out-dated, and there's no comparison made by Treantmonk after UA8.

It's OUTDATED.

As I said you're referring to a couple of burst bonuses from the fighter - not sustained. Fighter is woefully behind the rogue overall in skill checks but they can burst a couple of big ones and you're claiming that's representative of the entirety of out of combat encounters when obviously it's not. You never responded to that.

My Data isn't outdated, I said why it was not repeatedly, you never replied to that either.

You're just repeating yourself.