D&D 5E Rogues without Darkvision

[Sacrosanct]

I will admit that when I first saw the book, I was surprised that the most stereotypical rogue, the halfling, doesn't have darkvision.

 

[Mistwell]

I agree that halflings are the perfect rogue except for the huge glaring problem of lack of darkvision. Light in general has been a real source of angst for my players.

 

[Green1]

I can see it now.

"So, halfling, you want to join the city Rogue's Guild...."
"Yep... I got level 6, trained in stealth. Hell, I am even the Thief archetype instead of Assassin which all the kids like and can break into a lot of things and use my tools and skills like a mage uses spells!"
"Do you have darkvision or an item that grants it?"
"Err... no. But I may find some rich patron that has something...I am an expert at schmoozing and carousing. I slept with some lord's bored mistress a while back and...."
"GET OUT YOU UNOPTIMIZED CRAPLORD! If you can't go into dark tunnels and avoid being eaten while fighters and mages hang back, you are worthless. You should reroll!"
"But, why would I want to do that? Oh, I will help. But if it's some expedition, wouldn't the mage do something? I DID my job when I got the map while the mistress was sleeping"

The advantage of the rogue is it's versatility.

Darkvision is a great tool for underground, but to be honest unless the game is a constant dungeon crawl it is not used all the time. City adventures like blending into a crowd, tailing a suspected cult member of Evil No-Good Badness, climbing the top of a tower to get into an open window a halfling or human can do as well as a dwarf or drow.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Night vision goggles!

You think scouting was only invented circa 1960?

Sure, but I think here we're talking about dungeons I have been visiting underground caves a few times, the last one was a former mine in the Alps and let me tell you that it gives you a whole new definition of "dark". We tried to turn the lights off for a minute and it was terrifying. The guides told us that nobody ever got out alive from those mines if they ran out of light sources.

Granted. But nobody lives in those caves. Like [MENTION=6701872]AaronOfBarbaria[/MENTION] said, total darkness hinders most monsters as well as PCs, even with darkvision. I don't expect dwarves to keep their underground kingdoms pitch-black just because they can see dimly for sixty feet, and I don't expect orcs to do it either. (Although as Lindybeige points out, it's implausible that they'd use torches as light fixtures.)

Sure, sometimes you're up against grimlocks and then you're enveloped in a blackness deeper and darker than King Lear. A human rogue probably shouldn't scout ahead under those conditions. I dispute, however, that this is a common enough scenario in most campaigns to make human rogues hopeless wastes of space.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I will admit that when I first saw the book, I was surprised that the most stereotypical rogue, the halfling, doesn't have darkvision.

Because in The Hobbit, Bilbo definitely doesn't. The entirety of "Riddles in the Dark" takes place in, you guessed it, the dark.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

For me, as soon as a "sneaky rogue" gets within the darkvision range of monsters, he's seen. Period. The rogue has nothing to "hide behind/in/around" to not be seen (that whole "can't be seen" part of the Stealth rules). If there are no shadows playing around because of a light source, then everything is "seeable". The reason people have a hard time spotting something lurking in the shadows isn't because the shadows are darker...it's because the light is lighter...and causing their pupils to dilate...taking in less light to protect itself...making sneaky thief types much harder to spot. Take away that, and you have wide open pupils taking in any and every little movement they detect...e.g., a 'darkvisioned thief' sneaking down a darkened corridor.

At best, I allow a thief without actual "shadows" to hide/move in to make his Stealth checks at Disadvantage. Yes, this means that in my campaigns, parties are better off with torches and lanterns then without. Sure, monsters will see them coming a mile away...but those monsters may not see the sneaky types...and sometimes (often, actually) this can make ALL the difference in the world.

What does this mean in my campaign world? It means that snaeking around in the dark is likely to get the sneaker killed. It also means that a creature with darkvision is at a nice advantage when sneaking around areas where other creatures without darkvision, are (e.g., a drow assassin sneaking into a human castle to kill the king and queen). Once the deed is done, or he is detected, he can just run off into the darkness and not worry; the humans (or whatever) will have to be toting light sources...making it rather easy for the darkvision'ed thief to just avoid them at a distance. But a drow trying to sneak down a totally unlit cavern in the underdark to try and assassinate a drow noble in his castle? ... ...very dangerous...

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Li Shenron]

Granted. But nobody lives in those caves. Like [MENTION=6701872]AaronOfBarbaria[/MENTION] said, total darkness hinders most monsters as well as PCs, even with darkvision. I don't expect dwarves to keep their underground kingdoms pitch-black just because they can see dimly for sixty feet, and I don't expect orcs to do it either. (Although as Lindybeige points out, it's implausible that they'd use torches as light fixtures.)

I am not a biologist but I think that creatures which leave in total darkness are blind, and so it's probable that they wouldn't even notice the light of a torch. But here we are in fantasy, so we have monsters who can see in the dark.

But I agree with you and Aaron, that there is no need to feature a pitch-black dungeon everytime you have monsters with Darkvision such as Orcs and Drow. They might prefer the clearer vision granted by some light source (and usually those monsters hate the sunlight, but not the mere light from fire), have animal pets or allies who cannot see in the dark, use fire for heating or cooking etc...

 

[TheCosmicKid]

For me, as soon as a "sneaky rogue" gets within the darkvision range of monsters, he's seen. Period. The rogue has nothing to "hide behind/in/around" to not be seen (that whole "can't be seen" part of the Stealth rules). If there are no shadows playing around because of a light source, then everything is "seeable". The reason people have a hard time spotting something lurking in the shadows isn't because the shadows are darker...it's because the light is lighter...and causing their pupils to dilate...taking in less light to protect itself...making sneaky thief types much harder to spot. Take away that, and you have wide open pupils taking in any and every little movement they detect...e.g., a 'darkvisioned thief' sneaking down a darkened corridor.

This may have been true in previous editions, but in 5E, darkvision only lets creatures see in darkness as though it were dim light -- i.e., everything is still "lightly obscured" and they have disadvantage on Perception.

Also, pupils dilate to take in more light and see better in shadows.

I am not a biologist but I think that creatures which leave in total darkness are blind, and so it's probable that they wouldn't even notice the light of a torch.

Like grimlocks!

But I agree with you and Aaron, that there is no need to feature a pitch-black dungeon everytime you have monsters with Darkvision such as Orcs and Drow. They might prefer the clearer vision granted by some light source (and usually those monsters hate the sunlight, but not the mere light from fire), have animal pets or allies who cannot see in the dark, use fire for heating or cooking etc...

Darkvision upgrades "dim light" to "bright light", so I think that's probably what most creatures shoot for. Dimly glowing braziers, phosphorescent fungi, etc.

 

[Leugren]

I find my campaigns tend to involve a reversal of this:

Most monsters, even those with darkvision, keep their dungeons and similar settings dimly light, rather than completely in darkness - because they can see much farther in dimly lit surroundings than 60 feet, and thus are more likely to notice encroaching adventurers or other monsters in a dimly lit surroundings, which means less chance of winding up dead.

Especially if there are potentially hostile creatures in the area which have superior darkvision, drow for example, because relying on being able to see in darkness to a range of 60' to keep you alive when what wants to kill you can do the same at twice the range is choosing to get killed while waiting for some poor adventurer that you can catch unaware because they need a torch and you don't.

This is an interesting perspective, Aaron. I neglected to mention that our games involve a lot of traditional dungeon crawls, so much, though not all, of the action takes place in pitch darkness. Also, I prescribe to the errata'd version of the Hide rules, which state that "The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. Also, the question isn’t whether a creature can see you when you’re hiding. The question is whether it can see you clearly." In my games, a rogue can move undetected within visual range of creatures that have darkvision provided that the rogue is trying to be stealthy, and provided that the creatures are otherwise preoccupied. This all goes right out the window, of course, if the rogue is carrying a light source!

 

[Khisanth the Ancient]

At the risk of stating the obvious, in real life nobody has darkvision, and people have still managed to perform stealthy reconnaissance missions from time to time.

Yeah, in our heavily electrically-lit modern world people sometimes don't realize how much full dark adaptation can let you see at night, especially if the moon is up.

However, as other people have pointed out, underground environments can be totally dark and in that case no amount of dark adaptation helps.

Also, in real life (at least historically - night vision gear may change this in recent years) usually both sides had relatively equal visual abilities.