D&D 5E Rogues without Darkvision

[CapnZapp]

Sorry my bad

 

[Herobizkit]

After letting this go on for a couple of levels, my compassionate nature got the better of me, so the group just happened to stumble upon some Goggles of Night.

I hope that you also allowed that player to find a Turtleneck of Tactics.

 

[Leugren]

That's interesting, because when I think of "traditional dungeon crawls", I think of the adventure modules I ran in my youth, and they are the very source from which I originally drew my conclusion that even most monsters that can see in darkness would rather have dim light to see in because it has always been more advantageous - because of the strictly limited range, and because whether infravision or darkvision what it is that can be seen is of less useful degree of detail than what can be seen in dim light, such as neither of those types of vision being able to tell a surface-dwelling dwarf from a duergar, nor either typically being able to see that drow patrol before they have shot you full of poisoned crossbow bolts.

Dungeons have light sources in general, and dungeons that don't are full of things that can see farther in darkness than the typical adventurer that can see in the dark, so bringing light and giving away your position by doing so is still your best chance at seeing the denizens of the dungeon before it is too late - an enemy that knows you are coming being less of a threat than an enemy you can't see coming.

I agree that this makes a lot of sense. In complete darkness, all Perception rolls for creatures with darkvision are made at disadvantage. Intelligent creatures would therefore tend to favor light sources. At the same time, there are often large stretches of areas that are completely unlit. In the LMoP Cragmaw Hideout, for instance, there are a couple of rooms with blazing bonfires, but the rest of the complex is completely unlit. The same is true for Wave Echo Cave. This is not uncommon for what I would consider a traditional dungeon crawl.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Problem is, not all DM's will oblige with perfectly lit dungeons.

I call it an unreasonable expectation. D&D is a game where a successful scout needs darkvision.

Your suggestion about the torch is flummoxing. You do not carry light when you scout ahead. Unless you WANT the monsters to see you far far before you see them...

1. You don't need perfectly lit. You just need some kind of dim light.
It is not unreasonable to assume. You can also have darkvision from a spell if you really need it.

2. You don't need to scout miles ahead. You can easily just be around the corner. Thus the light source of your companions will suffice to navigate around a bit. It is not 3e where you are crippled by dim light. You don't even get disadvantage on attack rolls.

3. Yes, I really liked the playtest version of the rogue that gave some kind of darkvision very early. I think it was very helpful for the real dungeon delves. I would like a rogue variant that is expert at navigating without light sources. I do really like the shadow monk. Everything you need to sneak around in darkness.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

You could easily rule that darkvision has disadvantage on perception checks in total darkness. It is just black and white vision.
Also it is just 60ft or 120ft at most. So some lit areas at points you really want to see seems reasonable.
Also remember that the low light vision part also only extends to the given range. So out of that range you need sources of light or you are as blind as your enemies. In big caves not having a light source may give you serious troubles, even with darkvision.

 

[Ahglock]

I agree that this makes a lot of sense. In complete darkness, all Perception rolls for creatures with darkvision are made at disadvantage. Intelligent creatures would therefore tend to favor light sources. At the same time, there are often large stretches of areas that are completely unlit. In the LMoP Cragmaw Hideout, for instance, there are a couple of rooms with blazing bonfires, but the rest of the complex is completely unlit. The same is true for Wave Echo Cave. This is not uncommon for what I would consider a traditional dungeon crawl.

it won't fit every situation but isn't that what bullseye lanterns are for? You illuminate directed small areas not revealing yourself to everyone for miles. It allows you to navigate in total darkness and you shut it down when you close in on dimly lit areas that have people you have to sneak up on. Seems like a perfect use for the stealth skill. Did you approach them by concealing your light from them or not?

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Maybe don't think of it as "dim light", think of it as "brightly lit with no shadows".

It's fine if you houserule darkvision that way. But it's a substantial buff to the ability. 5E RAW says very specifically that characters see "in darkness as if it were dim light".

Can someone sneak up on someone in the middle of a field with a noon-day sun in the sky and no clouds in the sky?

What about in the middle of a field at night under the light of a full moon? Because that's how the PHB describes "dim light".

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Still missing the point.

No, I'm afraid you did. [MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION] was wondering why halflings don't and have never had darkvision in this game. You can agree or disagree with the reason, but that is the reason.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

It's fine if you houserule darkvision that way. But it's a substantial buff to the ability. 5E RAW says very specifically that characters see "in darkness as if it were dim light".

What about in the middle of a field at night under the light of a full moon? Because that's how the PHB describes "dim light".

I'm still not being clear...my bad, sorry!

I'm not saying I "houserule" Darkvision that way... I pretty much use the books description; "Darkness = Dim Light" for someone with Darkvision.

What I'm saying is that with Darkvision, there is very little variation in dark/light. With Darkvision, anything "dark" becomes "dim" and anything "dim" stays dim, and anything "bright"...well, if it worked that way, it would also be "dim". In stead of having 'light values' go from 0 to 100, using Darkvision in the dark shrinks that down to having 'light values' go from 45 to 55. Nothing is "dark", but nothing is "light"...everything gets pushed to the middle, "dim" area. Because of this, there are no "shadows" nor are there any "bright spots". A thief needs the full 0 to 100 range so that he can blend into the shadows and use the targets eyes against them...when you remove 90% of the "light values", IMHO, it would become significantly easier to spot a hiding thief (your eyes only have to account for 10 out of 100 possible variations...in stead of 100 our of 100 variations).

I really am having a difficult time trying to describe what I'm picturing in my mind....maybe I'll have to do some visuals or something...

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Leugren]

You could easily rule that darkvision has disadvantage on perception checks in total darkness. It is just black and white vision.

This is already the case by RAW. Darkvision allows you to see in complete darkness as through it were dim light. Unless you have the Skulker feat, you are at disadvantage when making Perception rolls in dim light.