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"Roleplaying": Thank you, Mr. Baur

seskis281

First Post
Thanks for the response Fusangite,

I can see where you're coming from here and that's cool. We disagree mainly because for you character emerges from the application of the rules, and I tend towards the opposite philosophy that the rules are simply malleable ways of expressing the actions of a character who's "story" and personality come 1st. Probably one of the reasons I switched to C&C (and PLEASE don't take that as a "3.x" is bad comment.... I just like less rules and don't begrudge anyone who sees a well-codified and specific system as being beneficial).

Well, thanks again... I've got encounters to finish prepping for tonight's game. :cool:
 

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fusangite

First Post
seskis281 said:
I can see where you're coming from here and that's cool. We disagree mainly because for you character emerges from the application of the rules, and I tend towards the opposite philosophy that the rules are simply malleable ways of expressing the actions of a character who's "story" and personality come 1st.
I don't think this is a good representation of my views at all.

My view is this: playing a character with any authenticity is really tough. Every aspect of the game should work to support and reinforce authentic role play: the rules, the story, the personality, etc. When people see the rules in opposition to the psychological and narrative aspects of the game rather than as tools for enhancing these things, one gets into trouble. I don't accept that these things need to be organized into a hierarchy of what "comes first."
Probably one of the reasons I switched to C&C (and PLEASE don't take that as a "3.x" is bad comment.... I just like less rules and don't begrudge anyone who sees a well-codified and specific system as being beneficial).
I don't use strict D20 either. I have spent a year and a half putting together a set of rules that fit well with my setting. The bottom line for me is that the rules are the physics of the game world; it's very hard to play a character anchored to a game world if its physics are incoherent or incomprehensible.
 

seskis281

First Post
I don't think this is a good representation of my views at all.

My apologies for misrepresenting/misunderstanding your views. It's just that the post above you used primarily all rules as the basis for how a character is represented.

Every aspect of the game should work to support and reinforce authentic role play: the rules, the story, the personality, etc.

This is the part I agree with completely. It should be a blend of all these factors.

I don't accept that these things need to be organized into a hierarchy of what "comes first."

But I noticed you listed rules 1st above.

Ok, then I think this is where our philosophical disagreement starts... The PHB I use says the following:

"All games have rules. Rules make a game playable. Rules are a set of guidelines offering the regulation of game activities...

Rules are indispensable, but if they are too rigorously imposed, on the other hand, rules can constrain and limit the deeds and exploits imagined by players."

That comes under the heading of "The rules are your Servant, Not your Master!" in the C&C PHB.

I would disagree that the "physics" of the fantasy world are necessarily found in the adherance to rules. Physics, to me, would simply mean that we try to make some fantastical concepts have some seeming "realness" to them in play. This includes actions and deeds. But strictly following a DC to see if a character knows something... well, even a 1st level could roll a Natural 20.... which is where I do think a hierarchy of character background and personality first comes into play. Why even eat up gaming time with constant checks when one a DM can say - "as a first level rogue who'd never been out of the city before this adventure, you would have no geographical knowledge to even check against about this desert hundreds of miles away."

But hey, that does lead us back to a whole other thread on the benefits/problems with either a rules-lite or rules-heavy system.

John :cool:
 

William Ronald

Explorer
I think that roleplaying can perhaps be defined as actions that a player character takes in an adventure. For example, a player who has a character charge a hated enemy -- either silently or with the character throwing out invectives questioning the foe's courage and parentage --- may be roleplaying as much as a character who silently and carefully moves behind a tree to get a position for a perfect shot.

A lot of roleplaying actions in a game depend a lot on the character, the player and the world. So, I think that a barbarian who boldly attacks foes can use some good judgement on tactics --- something that he may have some experience with --- but that it is perhaps fine for a DM to ask why a character is trying something unusual. (At one game, a DM grumbled about 5th level characters --- including a cleric, a wizard, and a rogue --- thinking tactically. Considering that the characters had probably fought dozens of skirmishes, and are trying to stay alive, it made sense to me for the characters to be able to discuss their actions beforehand and come up with a fairly decent plan.)

Overall, I liked Wolfgang Baur's article. I think that we may have different defintions of roleplaying, but I think that Baur makes several good points. The posters here also make good points. Perhaps one thing that DMs can do is to decide what constitutes common knowledge for characters, depending on their backgrounds and their places of origin. So, if trolls are a somewhat common threat, a PC may have a good reason to remember the stories of people using fire agains trolls. However, a PC from a region where trolls are largely unheard of might be reasonably asked to make a knowledge roll. (If the party is likely to face trolls, perhaps the first PC can share his knowledge with other PCs in a roleplaying encounter involving other party members.)

Perhaps players and DMs can work together to help establish what is common knowledge in a campaign. One way to do this is perhaps compile a list of things that all characters in a campaign are likely to know (perhaps information on common races or threats, or cultural and religious history --- a character might be able to identify a common religious symbol in their culture or the flag of the county in the country that they live in), things that are perhaps less common (knowing the flag of a distant land, or identifying the symbol of a religion largely unknown to the character's place of origin), and things that relatively few people are likely to know (the full powers of an uincommon monster, the details of politics in a land that is almost a legend) and things that practically no one knows (the greeting rituals of a secretive cult, the childhood nickname of a powerful enemy, the existence of a hidden refuge like Shangri-La.) Possiby, this could change for each character with time and experience. (For example, if the party interacts with a merchant caravan from a distant land, the party could interact with the caravan and learn a little bit about the land, the nation's history, and its flag.) I understand that the Player's Guide to the Eberron Campaign Setting has something called "The Five Things that EVERYONE in Khorvaire knows."

So, perhaps by setting up some parameters for what characters may know, based on their origins and prior experiences, it might make it easier for DMs to establish some of the feel of the setting. So, a barbarian might know that a troll might be able to reach him if he charges him could be appropriate for that character --- based on the character's background. The barbarian's new acquaintance, a wizard from a land without trolls, might have little knowledge of the monsters and little ideas of how to specifically fight a troll. (He may have enough sense and knowledge to realize that rushing up to something with long arms might be a little dangerous.) Just a few thoughts.
 

Hussar

Legend
Heh, I'd answer Seksis' question posed to me some ways up, but, damn, everyone else did a much better job than I could.

While, as a DM, I would prefer my players to put a bit of effort into characterizing their characters, if they simply reply, "I charge him, add +2 to my attack", they're still roleplaying. They are reacting to events in the game in a manner in which their character would react. They see a hated enemy and they charge. That's pretty straight forward and certainly in character.

And I would say, playing a role.
 

the player playing a Barbarian who meets a lich for the 1st time announces "I look for the lich's phylactery so I can smash it,"

My reaction as a DM would be to ask "how does your character know this?" If no solid in-game justification is forthcoming, I'll demand a Know (Religion) roll at DC10+(creature's HD) (or is it 15? don't have my PHB handy) and if they fail the roll, they will probably be shamed by the group collectively into abandoning the plan, or spending the next few rounds coming up with a credible in-game justification for it.

My reaction as a DM would be to ask "why did I use the word 'Lich' to describe this encounter?"

How much of the players roleplaying feeds off the DM's roleplaying? That may be a thread for another day, but when you remove the OOC names and use IC descriptions, you often remove alot of the OOC knowledge use that is seen as tactically supperior.

fusangite, thank you for that very nice defense of a low INT Barbarian being tactically intelligent :)
One of my pet peeves is that classes use as the 'stoopid dude' when, in fact, barbarians tend to be much more intelligent than the sterotype...just not as formally educated.
 

WayneLigon

Adventurer
I'd say that some aspect of 'roleplaying' certainly do enter into 'combat' encounters. As long as the myriad of choices available in combat reflect something of the character rather than desires of the player, it's certainly possible to roleplay just as well in combat as out of it.
 
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fusangite

First Post
seskis281 said:
But I noticed you listed rules 1st above.
You try using three words at the same time and see how far it gets you. Would you have been happier if I had put the sentence in alphabetical order? I repeat: there is no hierarchy.
I would disagree that the "physics" of the fantasy world are necessarily found in the adherance to rules.
While I do not think the rules are the sum total of the physics of the world, I consider them to contain an important subset thereof.

What are the rules? The rules are the laws of cause and effect that govern the characters and NPCs. That's all physics are: the laws of cause and effect.
Physics, to me, would simply mean that we try to make some fantastical concepts have some seeming "realness" to them in play.
Indeed. And one of the ways that we do this is by codifying them in big books and publishing them. What these books express, in large measure, is the way people can expect physical laws to interact with their characters.
But strictly following a DC to see if a character knows something... well, even a 1st level could roll a Natural 20....
Fortunately, under the RAW, a natural twenty is only an automatic success on an attack roll. It is not an automatic success on a skill check.

If a GM wants a task to be too difficult for his PCs to master, he gives it a DC higher than the PC could roll.
But hey, that does lead us back to a whole other thread on the benefits/problems with either a rules-lite or rules-heavy system.
I'm very happy in both kinds of systems. I think there are major disadvantages to the graininess and detail with which rules-heavy systems grapple with the game world. They often end up being baroque, counter-intuitive and self-contradictory if they go into too much detail. It may surprise you to know that I generally prefer a level of rules detail similar to your tastes.
 

fusangite

First Post
Primitive Screwhead said:
My reaction as a DM would be to ask "why did I use the word 'Lich' to describe this encounter?"
Good point. I would not.
How much of the players roleplaying feeds off the DM's roleplaying? That may be a thread for another day,
Well, post it and I'll be happy to contribute. Your intervention here was certainly helpful.
fusangite, thank you for that very nice defense of a low INT Barbarian being tactically intelligent :)
One of my pet peeves is that classes use as the 'stoopid dude' when, in fact, barbarians tend to be much more intelligent than the sterotype...just not as formally educated.
My pleasure; I hope the arguments come in handy for you in future.
 

00Machado

First Post
Quickleaf said:
It sounds to me you, like many D&D players, have been conditioned to associate failure as "un-fun" because the DM was adversarial and not quick on his/her feet.
...I'm happy to post more on this if you'd like.

I'd be interested in seeing a thread on this. Sounds like an interesting idea but I'm mostly at a loss for how to execute on its potential.
 

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