Roll20 users; are my impressions right or wrong on this

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
[MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION]


Marketing data from companies like Mattel- such as when they started making non-Caucasian Barbie dolls- show us that inclusive product lines increase sales as they 1) draw in new customers and 2) drive some increase in repeat sales.

Other studies of TV, movies and other visual arts show similar trends: increase diversity and you broaden your market.

Now, per your assertion of whether the flipside is true- do non-inclusive visual aesthetics drive the excluded from participation? Truthfully, I know of no data beyond the existence of modern backlashes to whitewashing.

I DO know anecdotally there were reports of parents who were frustrated with a dearth of minority dolls for girls and started buying other gifts- a subject covered in the comedy show, Black-ish. And that some of my extended family were often concerned/dismissive of my playing D&D as a “white man’s game”.*. And for myself, I can say that the non-inclusive art has been corrosive to my enjoyment, but I got past it for the love of the game and enjoying time with my friends. In most RPGs, it isn’t a deal-breaker...but some few that traded in stereotypes and objectification were definitely left on the shelves- not just by me.

Back in the 1990s, there was a 3rd party product line of FRPG adventures that featured cover art of extremely voluptuous, underclad cheesecake-y female characters. The store managers at my (then) FLGS didn’t care for them: the mothers and fathers who brought in their kids for this, that or the other frequently complained. Even most of the older players who MIGHT have bought them acted as if they were Playboy magazines for sale at the newsstand in front of a church. Most of those things stayed on the shelves until they hit the store’s final clearance bin.






* also, that whole “Satanic” thing
Oh, I fully agree products that are bought as children's toys and are bought specifically for how they look should oay attention. RPGs are not this, though. If someone is already leafing through an RPG, it's because they're already interested -- you are not attracting new players to the hobby that aren't already interested in the hobby.

Inclusive art is a positive inside the hobby, but it isn't changing the culture by bringing in new demographics. That's the point -- in the fight to change the culture of gaming, art isn't the front line. Still a good thing.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I think we can all agree that this is a lofty and worthy goal. There are a number of flaws in your arguments however, most of which hinge around the fact that this isn't the society we live, and in fact has never been the society we live in.

I'm on my phone right now, so haven't been able to address you last post, much kess this one, but I wanted respond to this:


That's absolutely a terrible reason to dismiss doing better.  The past was bad and the present isn't perfect, so we should abandon the attempt?  That's a non-starter for me.  It also provides soft justification to use the oast to justify the same bad behavior against different peoples in pursuit of some reciprocity. An eye for an eye and the whole world is blind.  We can do better.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Oh, I fully agree products that are bought as children's toys and are bought specifically for how they look should oay attention. RPGs are not this, though. If someone is already leafing through an RPG, it's because they're already interested -- you are not attracting new players to the hobby that aren't already interested in the hobby.

Inclusive art is a positive inside the hobby, but it isn't changing the culture by bringing in new demographics. That's the point -- in the fight to change the culture of gaming, art isn't the front line. Still a good thing.

I think the push/pull of non-inclusive art in RPGs has largely been a matter of other decisions.

By that I mean that most of the worst examples of whitewashing are hidden deep within the products, and are thus not visible to the passerby or casual browsers- you’re mostly only going to find them after you’ve made your purchase.

Imagine, for instance, if the whitewashed illustration for the Egyptian pantheon I posted a few pages back had been the cover art for the whole book in which it appeared, instead of a splash page within the book. How would black gamers have reacted to that? What about other non-Caucasians?

But it wasn’t, probably because the people in charge wanted a product that looked like a generic FRPG type product covering many pantheons, not an Egyptian Sourcebook. IOW, there wasn’t any conscious thought about the skewed view presented by the image, it’s use as interior illustration as opposed to cover art was most likely based on other, perfevpctky sound decisions. That the image had inherent problems didn’t occur to anyone involved.

(FWIW, as a piece of art, I have always liked that illustration, culturally messed-up as it was.)
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
I'm on my phone right now, so haven't been able to address you last post, much kess this one, but I wanted respond to this:

That's absolutely a terrible reason to dismiss doing better.  The past was bad and the present isn't perfect, so we should abandon the attempt?  That's a non-starter for me.  It also provides soft justification to use the oast to justify the same bad behavior against different peoples in pursuit of some reciprocity. An eye for an eye and the whole world is blind.  We can do better.

If that's the take you read from my post than I either I have either miscommunicated to the extreme or you have misread me to the extreme (I imagine the truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle).

In fact, if I were to misread you I would make the exact same accusations to you that you are to me. That "we can't change what's in the past" is a poor excuse to dismiss being better. Because that is what we are both trying to achieve, after all; better. I took the courtesy of best of intentions on your part; I would expect the same courtesy to be extended to myself in return.

My point isn't that "the real world is messy so we just have to have do what we can"; my point is "the real world is messy so idealistic calls to just 'treat everyone with respect moving forward' are naive and will fall far short of creating any kind of equity, let alone equality, in reality."

There are also two concepts in your posts that have no place in any kind of serious attempt at achieving true equity: guilt and vengeance. Equity isn't about making anyone feel guilty, either about the sins of their forefathers or in the advantages they continue to enjoy today on account of those sins. Guilt is worse than worthless as a tool for change; it not only distracts from real issues, but most research has found that it tends to entrench attitudes and behaviors rather than correct them. Anyone who is actively trying to make you feel guilty for past or present oppression or privilege is probably more dedicated to winning an argument than making any real progress; not that there isn't plenty of such individuals in the world.

Second, no one is seeking revenge, reciprocity, or an "eye for an eye". I'm not even positive how you could have possibly made the leap to there from "leveling the playing field". "Justice", on the other hand, levels by the playing field by giving people the leg up they need to escape the cycle of poverty, which frankly isn't possible without address the present impact of past oppression.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
So, there are a couple of issues with this argument, the biggest is this: for the most part, women are not the reason why male "nerds" are social outcasts; that problem is by-and-large other men, and by gate-keeping women from nerdy culture they are reinforcing the very gendered stereotypes and heteropatriarchy that made them social outcasts in the first place. That's self-defeating behavior at best; at worst you're verging into incel "supreme gentlemen" territory. In no actual instances are men seriously oppressed by women, at least not in any broader cultural or structural sense. There is nothing to justify discrimination or gatekeeping against women within this or any other nerd-dominated hobby other than misogyny, either deliberate or internalized.
You must have attended different highschools than everyone else. Sure, low social status people are picked on by men and women, but low social status males are very much treated very poorly by higher social status women. This is true in all societies -- it's not an incel argument (incels go on to blame women and fixate on this blame). It's laughable to exclude women from the social banishment of low status men, just like it's laughable to exclude men (or women) from the banishment of low social status women. However you want to slice it, our society does more to socially isolate low status men than it does to low status women (you can blame the "patriarchy" for this, there's a credible argument that it's the treating of women as chattel that provides value to low status women that low status men do not have).

We, as people, are nasty to each other without engaging in -isms. It should not be an outlandish argument to point out that, especially for young men, the achievement of sufficient social capital to land a mate is of prime importance. With that understood, the prospects of low status men to achieve such is small, so it's attractive to engage in hobby activities where you can pretend to have a much higher social status. It's also understandable that while pursuing this fantasy, actually doing so with women threatens the fantasy, as real social infighting takes place for status in the group (even if the woman isn't available or interested -- we're not that far from apes) and the fantasy status is threatened. So, groups of low status boys wishing to pretend they're big shots socially are hampered from doing so in the presence of the actual object of their real life social goals. You may find this disgusting, but that's ignoring the primary focal point of society -- to provide for the next generation. Almost all of our social rituals are status seeking behaviors to improve our prospects for a mate. Some people lose, and might not want to be reminded of this.

Also, this exact reason is why it's a good idea to have women only safe spaces -- women also wish to escape from this mixed-sex social grind for status. They don't want to put up with socially awkward boys making badly timed and badly executed advances because they think that if a woman is in this group, her social status is low enough they may have a chance. That's entirely mistaken on the boys part, and some serious education needs to go into correcting this, yes, but it's the very reason for no boys allowed, yes? You can't acknowledge the problem on one side and then say it's horrible on the other. And, this is ignoring the real predators and bad actors -- this is just the socially awkward fumblers. Add the other in and yes, women should be able to have safe space play areas. But, so should men.

There are good reasons on both sides to not want to game with the other sex as part of a recreational and voluntary hobby. It turns out the reasons often overlap.

Creating spaces without men, however, at least in context of small online gaming groups, is an actual matter of personal privacy and safety. Sometimes those practical concerns butt heads with loftier ideals. If the levels of harassment against women on the internet, up-to and including doxxing, swatting, and death threats, were not so outrageously out of of proportion I might even be inclined to agree with you. As it is though, the dangers that women face on the internet represent such a stronger justification than "I'm worried about all the Stacys making fun of me" does that "No Women" spaces reek of discrimination while "No Men" spaces seem a perfectly reasonable precaution. Not as a matter of structure, anyway, but certainly as an accommodation on request.
See, you get it on one side, but fail to see how it's also for personal privacy and safety on the men's side. I wouldn't want to play in a men-only game, I don't have that kind of damage to need that safe space. I'd rather people of that desire be able to self-advertise, so I can make informed decisions.

This, by the way, demonstrates the difference between equality and equity. Equality seeks equality of service; equity seeks equality of outcomes. In instances where the playing field isn't level (which is most instances, but definitely includes having a defined gender identity on the internet), equity seeks approaches to make the field more level; in this instance, by allowing for spaces in which women gamers can be reasonably sure they do not have to worry for their safety while play tabletop games.

Who picks what's equal, though? This is the problem with equity as a goal, someone more equal that the others defines what's equal for everyone.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
If that's the take you read from my post than I either I have either miscommunicated to the extreme or you have misread me to the extreme (I imagine the truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle).

In fact, if I were to misread you I would make the exact same accusations to you that you are to me. That "we can't change what's in the past" is a poor excuse to dismiss being better. Because that is what we are both trying to achieve, after all; better. I took the courtesy of best of intentions on your part; I would expect the same courtesy to be extended to myself in return.

My point isn't that "the real world is messy so we just have to have do what we can"; my point is "the real world is messy so idealistic calls to just 'treat everyone with respect moving forward' are naive and will fall far short of creating any kind of equity, let alone equality, in reality."

There are also two concepts in your posts that have no place in any kind of serious attempt at achieving true equity: guilt and vengeance. Equity isn't about making anyone feel guilty, either about the sins of their forefathers or in the advantages they continue to enjoy today on account of those sins. Guilt is worse than worthless as a tool for change; it not only distracts from real issues, but most research has found that it tends to entrench attitudes and behaviors rather than correct them. Anyone who is actively trying to make you feel guilty for past or present oppression or privilege is probably more dedicated to winning an argument than making any real progress; not that there isn't plenty of such individuals in the world.

Second, no one is seeking revenge, reciprocity, or an "eye for an eye". I'm not even positive how you could have possibly made the leap to there from "leveling the playing field". "Justice", on the other hand, levels by the playing field by giving people the leg up they need to escape the cycle of poverty, which frankly isn't possible without address the present impact of past oppression.

You do misunderstand me -- I see equity as abhorrent as a concept. I'm very much for equality.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
There is an argument for the Earth being flat, too. One can make "an argument" for virtually anything. Arguments are just words.
Nice strawman.

Does the argument line up with reality? Can you demonstrate with data that male social outcasts are "oppressed" by women? If not, I'm not sure it is worth listening to the argument.
You can argue that being socially outcast isn't a form of oppression, and that would be valid. However, women are an pretty equal part of society, so if you accept that it's society doing the shunning, then you, by default, accept my argument that women are a part of that. Given the discussion was about sex-exclusive grouping, I didn't make the corollary argument that, of course, low status men in gaming also exclude jocks and high status men from their groups as well. I'm equal opportunity for that.
 

Sadras

Legend
For clarification purposes is the issue of particular tables excluding girls from their boys-night gaming or gamers baring women into the hobby, cause there is a massive difference between the two
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
For clarification purposes is the issue of particular tables excluding girls from their boys-night gaming or gamers baring women into the hobby, cause there is a massive difference between the two

Not as different as you'd believe. Going on a public site to recruit boys-night gaming not only applies to the specific game, but it also makes an impression for the broader hobby. Would you feel the same if an online game advertised "For whites only" as you do for a boys-night game? How about "For heterosexuals only"?
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
You do misunderstand me -- I see equity as abhorrent as a concept. I'm very much for equality.

I had to re-read your previous post a couple of times, but it seems as if you and I are indeed on very different wavelengths on a great number of different ideas, and not just in the interplay between equality and equity (which are not necessarily mutually exclusive concepts, by the by). For instance, it also appears clear you and I have very different conceptions of gender relationships. I confess to being... unsettled (though not quite disgusted, as you suggest) by your contention that mating is the by-all end-all goal of attaining social status (which, apart from its heteronormativity, is a very ladder-theory-esque approach to gender relationships, which is problematic in its own right). No, I was in fact already there due to your insinuation that, by "virtue" of being exploited for sexual conquest, women at least have some "value" that men don't always have the "benefit" of attaining, leaving such women less socially-isolated than men, which, among other things that turned my stomach, ignores the way such young women are often treated by their peers in the aftermath of their "value" being... well, "extracted" is the word I would use if I were to extend your metaphor to it's grossest conclusion.

I would go so far as to make the argument that the sex-focused nature of your beliefs are largely part of the problem; in addition to ignoring the ludicrous amount of social fallout most young women face as a result of being sexually active or simply having sex, or being rumored to have had sex, or refusing to have sex (it's not an exaggeration to state that there is simply no way of being a teenage girl without opening oneself to a neverending litany of critique and ostracization, no matter what choices they make or do not make), it also ignores how commonplace it is to for that "value" to be garnered against their will. Treating all of this as "well at least you got to have sex!" is beyond juvenile; it's callous and violent.

Given that these and seem to represent at least some part of your core beliefs about the nature of relationships between men and women, I don't really think we're going to eye to eye on much of anything involved gender relationships, let alone within any more complex and nuanced ideas such as equity.

And I had such high hopes, too.
 

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