D&D 5E Roshambo-Style Theatre of the Mind Combat


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OB1

Jedi Master
[MENTION=69817]volanin[/MENTION] - This revised version is very, very good. I've got a couple of suggestions, but I think that this is just about ready to be put into the DM's Guild.

Name - How about Rashambo Style Theatre of the Mind?

Dealing with speed - So, I think you are part way there with the issue of various creature speed, but I'm wondering what you would think about this.

If something has caused your speed to be 20 or less, you cannot intercept (this covers being in difficult terrain, prone, getting up from prone, slowed, etc), and if you dash to a far location that is difficult terrain, you lose your action on your next turn.
If something has caused your speed to be 40 or more, you can dash as part of your regular movement

Difficult Terrain - An area is either difficult terrain or it is not. If the near zone is difficult terrain, your speed is reduced by half. If a far zone is difficult terrain, see above.

Cover - The DM will advise if an area has half or 3/4 cover available, and how many instances of each. To gain the benefit of cover, you must be engaged with it. Only one creature may benefit from each instance of cover. You may intercept a creature to prevent them from engaging with cover. You cannot Intercept when you are engaged with cover. If someone is under Full cover, they are considered to be Far.

Finally, if you do submit this to the Guild, I'd rework the introduction to focus less on what is wrong with the current system, and more towards the exciting concept of Rashambo Style. The rock/scissors/paper description really makes this entire concept make sense right away, and I think leading with that will help people instantly understand what this is all about and get excited to try it.
 


volanin

Adventurer
[MENTION=69817]volanin[/MENTION] - This revised version is very, very good. I've got a couple of suggestions, but I think that this is just about ready to be put into the DM's Guild.

That's a lot to analise and think about, amazing!
I'll post a better response to your post soon!


FYI the link in the first post doesn't seem to work, but the link two posts above this one did work for me.

Fixed!
Thanks a lot.
 

Stalker0

Legend
I like these rules a lot! It might need a chart or something to go through Engage, Dash, and Interrupt...I think it can take a few reads to really understand that.

My only concern is that this does a strong nerf to ranged combat. In current 5e, you can shoot a bow from 300 ft away, and that's not even getting in to warlock eldritch blast range shenanigans. For normal speeds, it takes 5 rounds to engage with that archer....assuming they aren't skirmishing (aka moving back). With your system, it can be done in 1 round.

On the other hand, I think 5e may have gone overboard in this department. Without the old run (x4 speed) action, it takes a LONG time to engage an archer. 5 rounds is basically the entire combat. And further bows are basically as good (some would argue greater) than melee weapons right now.

On the other, it does feel wrong that archers effectively have a range of 31 feet.

You could add a property like this that might do:

"Extreme Range": A character using a weapon at extreme range cannot be engaged, unless the player starts their turn at near range to them. (or some flavor of that).

This way archers get at least 1 round before they can be engaged. Its still not nearly as strong as the base version, but it gives them something.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Ok so digging into the rules a little more...a few thoughts.

1) If I understand it correctly, when I do a move I can only engage 1 new enemy. Can I still split up my movement between attacks? For example can I move into an orc (engaging it), kill it with my first attack, move into a second orc (engaging) it, kill it with my second attack, and then move into a 3rd orc (engaging it)?

I feel something like this is needed as move/attack/move was a key flexibility 5e offered fighter types they did not have in the last 2 editions.

2) It looks like reach weapons have no benefit in this. They probably need something (like maybe the ability to engage an extra enemy on a turn or something).

3) I think intercept is a little too limited. Instead of requiring you to be unengaged, I think a player must simply break current engagements (which provoke AOOs) in order to intercept. It already requires their reaction so its fairly limited in its current form.

I think the system can be expanded a bit to simulate those specific scenarios that TOTM has trouble with. For example, the old 2 guards blocking the hallway scenario.

(Limited Terrain X)

Due to tight hallways or dense forests, certain fights do not offer the normal freedom of movement implied in standard TOTM. In this condition, use this special rule.

Engage: You cannot break your current engagements. A character can only be engaged with X targets...X = the number specific based on the terrain.


So example: The old 10 foot wide hallway scenario with 2 guards might be Limited Terrain 2. A guard can engage with only 2 characters at once, and people don't have the freedom to just move around as they would in a more open scenario. A 3rd character cannot engage with a guard already engaged with 2 characters (there's just not enough space in that hallway).
 

volanin

Adventurer
@volanin - This revised version is very, very good. I've got a couple of suggestions, but I think that this is just about ready to be put into the DM's Guild.

Name - How about Rashambo Style Theatre of the Mind?

Consider the name stolen! =)


Dealing with speed - So, I think you are part way there with the issue of various creature speed, but I'm wondering what you would think about this.

If something has caused your speed to be 20 or less, you cannot intercept (this covers being in difficult terrain, prone, getting up from prone, slowed, etc), and if you dash to a far location that is difficult terrain, you lose your action on your next turn.
If something has caused your speed to be 40 or more, you can dash as part of your regular movement

Difficult Terrain - An area is either difficult terrain or it is not. If the near zone is difficult terrain, your speed is reduced by half. If a far zone is difficult terrain, see above.

First, this has a minor problem (which is also present in the current PDF text): it makes you track speed values, and I don't like that at all. I'm seriously considering rewriting this situation to: "If you get any speed increase beyond your base speed (Barbarian's Fast Movement, Monk's Unarmored Movement, Haste Spell), you can Dash as a Bonus Action". Easy, fast, and does the job.

Second, it's true that the current rules only deal with speed increases (because it's way more common), but not with speed decreases (Difficult Terrain, Slow Spell)... but I agree that speed decreases are common enough to deserve some attention. I just haven't yet found something that I'm completely content with...


Cover - The DM will advise if an area has half or 3/4 cover available, and how many instances of each. To gain the benefit of cover, you must be engaged with it. Only one creature may benefit from each instance of cover. You may intercept a creature to prevent them from engaging with cover. You cannot Intercept when you are engaged with cover. If someone is under Full cover, they are considered to be Far.

This is just genius!
And it can even be expanded: to interact with anything (Altars, Traps, Healing Springs) you have to Engage them!
This makes everything fit naturally in the current system. Very cool!
 
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volanin

Adventurer
I like these rules a lot! It might need a chart or something to go through Engage, Dash, and Interrupt...I think it can take a few reads to really understand that.

My only concern is that this does a strong nerf to ranged combat. In current 5e, you can shoot a bow from 300 ft away, and that's not even getting in to warlock eldritch blast range shenanigans. For normal speeds, it takes 5 rounds to engage with that archer....assuming they aren't skirmishing (aka moving back). With your system, it can be done in 1 round.

[...]

"Extreme Range": A character using a weapon at extreme range cannot be engaged, unless the player starts their turn at near range to them. (or some flavor of that).

This way archers get at least 1 round before they can be engaged. Its still not nearly as strong as the base version, but it gives them something.

I agree with you. But I also think that a 300ft. distant archer leads to a very boring combat. This is not something you find in every game session, and when this happens, I consider it a situation to be treated more like a puzzle or social encounter than a combat encounter where you have to spend 5 rounds moving. So it currently falls under my "added complexity for very little gain" rule.

That said, the idea of somehow allowing an archer to get 1 round before they can be engaged is interesting.
Let me think about that a little more.


Ok so digging into the rules a little more...a few thoughts.

1) If I understand it correctly, when I do a move I can only engage 1 new enemy. Can I still split up my movement between attacks? For example can I move into an orc (engaging it), kill it with my first attack, move into a second orc (engaging) it, kill it with my second attack, and then move into a 3rd orc (engaging it)?

I feel something like this is needed as move/attack/move was a key flexibility 5e offered fighter types they did not have in the last 2 editions.

Yes you can. Movement in the Near range is freeform, you can move as much as you want. If you kill an enemy, you're free to move again and engage another. Even if you have only a single attack, and kill an enemy with it, you can still move and engage someone else (like the archer behind the just slain enemy...)

In theory, you could even engage and retreat from every single enemy in 1 round (and take a lot of Opportunity Attacks). It's ridiculous, but this is a side effect of a more freeform combat movement. Even in gridded combat right now, you can perform laps around an enemy without any consequence whatsover, and it's just as ridiculous! Veto power is always in the hands of the DM!


2) It looks like reach weapons have no benefit in this. They probably need something (like maybe the ability to engage an extra enemy on a turn or something).

Yes, this was a point already raised by @jaelis.
Currently, reach is being deliberately ignored to avoid complexity.
I'm considering citing this as an optional rule to allow creatures with reach weapons to make Opportunity Attacks against whoever tries to Engage them (other RPG systems do exactly that)... but I fear it will be abused. I have to give it a little more thought.


3) I think intercept is a little too limited. Instead of requiring you to be unengaged, I think a player must simply break current engagements (which provoke AOOs) in order to intercept. It already requires their reaction so its fairly limited in its current form.

This would be really cool, but it's a nightmare to track! Imagine someone trying to Intercept (using a Reaction out of turn), and to do this he breaks engagement, triggering Opportunity Attacks (even more Reactions out of turn)... with enough combatants, it cascades into insanity! And the poor player whose turn is on... will never get to play!

Besides, the current form adds an extra layer of strategy: Remember I said that even if you have a single attack, and kill the enemy, you can still move and engage another (although you cannot attack again)? So, this new enemy you're engaging is a Bugbear that deals a LOT of damage. Do you prefer to engage it right away and risk that it might go for the wizard on its turn (even if it takes an Opportunity Attack from you), or do you prefer not to engage with him immediately and wait, so that if he goes for the wizard you'd be able to Intercept it?

Always being Engaged is not always the best choice: Roshambo (Rock/Paper/Scissors).


I think the system can be expanded a bit to simulate those specific scenarios that TOTM has trouble with. For example, the old 2 guards blocking the hallway scenario.

(Limited Terrain X)

Due to tight hallways or dense forests, certain fights do not offer the normal freedom of movement implied in standard TOTM. In this condition, use this special rule.

Engage: You cannot break your current engagements. A character can only be engaged with X targets...X = the number specific based on the terrain.


So example: The old 10 foot wide hallway scenario with 2 guards might be Limited Terrain 2. A guard can engage with only 2 characters at once, and people don't have the freedom to just move around as they would in a more open scenario. A 3rd character cannot engage with a guard already engaged with 2 characters (there's just not enough space in that hallway).

I can see the intention!

And in my opinion, that's Grid-style school of thought being used in TotM-style combats. You say TotM has trouble with this, but in truth this just doesn't apply, because the hallway isn't limited by two squares on a grid. In an old 10 foot wide hallway you can describe a massive wave of Goblins with spears, completely insane, climbing and jumping one over the other, hurting themselves, trying to pierce and kill kill kill the party! Easily a trainwreck of 10+ enemies! Add some Spiders in the ceiling, occupying the same "map area", locking the party in place with their webs, making them helpless while saliva drips on their heads... and that's the beauty of TotM!

I believe in this case, any limits for number of enemies and engagements must be adjudicated by the DM in real-time, not by the rules.
 
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OB1

Jedi Master
Consider the name stolen! =)

First, this has a minor problem (which is also present in the current PDF text): it makes you track speed values, and I don't like that at all. I'm seriously considering rewriting this situation to: "If you get any speed increase beyond your base speed (Barbarian's Fast Movement, Monk's Unarmored Movement, Haste Spell), you can Dash as a Bonus Action". Easy, fast, and does the job.

Second, it's true that the current rules only deal with speed increases (because it's way more common), but not with speed decreases (Difficult Terrain, Slow Spell)... but I agree that speed decreases are common enough to deserve some attention. I just haven't yet found something that I'm completely content with...

Glad you like the name and the idea for cover!

I'll admit that the speed thing is a bit clunky. I was trying to think of it in terms of an advantage/disadvantage binary model, but this was the closest I could come up with. I chose 20 and 40 since PC base race speed goes from 25-35, making that the "normal" range and it gives a tremendous amount of flexibility in determining outcome without a lot of extra tracking, speed is central to every one's character sheet so knowing your speed has been halved by one effect and doubled by another doesn't seem like that much work to me. However, in an attempt to simplify this even further, how about the below as an A/DA style rule?

Movement Advantage - You can gain advantage to your movement from one of many sources (Haste, Unarmored Movement, ability to ignore difficult terrain, bonus dash ability), if you have it, you can Dash as part of your regular movement
Movement Disadvantage - You can gain disadvantage to your movement from one of many sources (Prone, Difficult terrain, Encumbered, Slowed), if you have it, you cannot intercept, and if you dash to a far location that is difficult terrain, you lose your action on your next turn

Advantages and Disadvantages don't stack, and if you have one of each from any source you move normally.
 

Stalker0

Legend
For movement, you could do it this way.

1) If your speed is 35-40 ft, you gain dash as a bonus action.
2) If your speed is 45 or greater, you can dash as a part of your move action.

That also gives Monks that little extra at high levels, or wood elf barbarians. If that's too low you could go to 50 ft as your cutoff.
 

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