Rule Experts & Casual Players Mix Question

[Scorponox]

Hey fellow DMs and PCs, I have a question regarding player mix.

In my campaign, there are two players who I would consider "experts". They know the rules very well, and generally know what they are doing. I've been throwing battles at them that are somewhat unusual. Just last week, they were on a corner ledge, and five spiders started crawling up the ledge. The rogue decided to use his oil and pour it down the side of one ledge, then set it on fire to burn the spiders coming up. The battle involved having the spiders crawl around the fire, through the fire, and there were some spiders who were hanging onto the side of the mountain and the players blocking them so they couldn't actually get onto the flat surface.

Anyways, this, and other battles, sometimes involve the two more experienced players having to look up things in different books. This could take anywhere from 5 minutes to 15 minutes while they try to find where there is a specific rule for that situation.

While this is going on, the other two players look bored. There is really nothing for them to do, and I'd like to find a way to engage the casual players while the experienced players bury their noses in the books.

Is there any way you guys know of that can keep all the players occupied? I sometimes have NPCs talk to them about the world they are adventuring in, but I've only got so much before there is nothing left to talk about or I inadvertently almost reveal some part of the story I'm not suppose to yet.

 

[Oryan77]

Is there any way you guys know of that can keep all the players occupied?

My opinion has always been that the pacing of the game and action comes first. I will do whatever I can to keep the game moving, even if it means slipping a $50 bill under the table to tell the rules lawyer to shut up.

This means that I do not spend much time looking up rules. I believe that the DM is responsible for relaying the rules. And if you can't do it quickly, then make it up. You should always be fair about your ruling though. Don't try to screw over your players, but don't screw over your NPCs just so you don't screw over your players. A DM is a referee, he should be neutral and fair.

This can be hard for a rules lawyer to deal with. But, the enjoyment of the players is more important to me than whether or not a rules lawyer is happy. I won't let that bring down the enjoyment of the game for other players. If you have even one player that is bored, that is very very very bad...and you have two bored players!

What I tell my players is that when I half-ass a rule to keep the game going, I will look up the rule after the game so I will know what to do next time. And if my ruling doesn't benefit the players, the rules lawyers don't need to throw a fit. I remind them that for every time I made a ruling that didn't go there way, I've made lots more mistakes (like forgetting monster immunities or resistances) that benefited the PCs. Also, most likely the ruling you make up at that moment is not going to be the cause of a PC death, so who cares how precise the ruling is.

That's my take on it. I give the players around 1 minute to look something up if it is just something we need to be reminded about. But if it is anything that we need to figure out, I make it up, move on, and figure it out after the game.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I don't like people browsing books while playing. It slows down the game and it's boring. I skip players who don't say what they want to do within a reasonable time when their turns come up.

If they have a rules question I either know the rule, or make a ruling. If a bit unsure I will check the rules after the game or in a break.

I tell my players about it and the reasons for doing it before we start a campaign. If there are any problems with the "houserules" we will discuss it then, not during a game.

 

[Wepwawet]

Is there any way you guys know of that can keep all the players occupied?

Yes: Don't let anyone's turn take more than 2 minutes.

I'm a rules lawyer myself, and I would be pretty bored if I had to wait every time for some other player to check the books about some rare crazy stuff.

When I'm not sure about the rules for some situation I check the books while it's not my turn. So I can have everything ready on my turn.
They should do the same.
It's also your responsability, if some situation is not clear just make a quick judgment and let the action continue

 

[S'mon]

As DM I don't allow more than a couple minutes' rules-referencing in play, either by me or the players. It's not worth it.

If a player doesn't have an action lined up when their turn comes up, they Delay until they do know.

 

[Hungry Like The Wolf]

I think you should reserve the right to make rule judgements. If they are expert rules guys, that's cool but when their obsession with playing it by the book gets to the point of halting the game, then I think you need to make a call and move on.

It's a tricky situation though, because those types of players usually don't handle DM fiat very well. It shouldn't be hard to get everyone on board though, I mean for the sake of a good game.

 

[S'mon]

If they are expert rules guys...

Obviously they're not, or they'd already know the rules and wouldn't need to take 15 minute breaks to look stuff up!

 

[Doug McCrae]

This could take anywhere from 5 minutes to 15 minutes while they try to find where there is a specific rule for that situation.

Don't let them do that. Often in rpgs, speed is better than accuracy. When a rule is in doubt, just make a quick ruling. It's part of a GM's job to do this, imho, to keep the game moving at a reasonable pace.

The players may think that the actual rule might be more to their advantage than the ruling, so still want to look it up. This is the problem of gamism (wanting to win the game) going too far. The player wants to win so badly that he's prepared to sacrifice the quality of the game to do it. This is something I've noticed among a minority of my current players and, tbh, I've been guilty of it myself as a player. I think it's a bad thing, and as players we shouldn't do it.

The game > winning.

 

[IronWolf]

Lots of good advice here already. I tend to follow Oryan77's and others advice.

Don't slow the game down to look up a rule if looking up that rule takes more than a minute or so. As GM make a ruling, stay consistent with that ruling for the rest of the session and have fun playing the game. Between sessions, go back, review the rulebook and feel free to involve the "rules lawyer" players in determining what the proper ruling should have been. Once that ruling has been determined, make sure to let the others know how the situation will be handled in the future. This method lets the fun of playing keep up at a brisk pace while still allowing rules questions to get sorted out between sessions where those interested can participate.

Don't waste game time debating or figuring out a complex rule when that can be done between sessions.