D&D 3E/3.5 Rule Question: Into Melee & Soft Cover

[haakon1]

A medium-sized character is engaged in melee with a medium-sized monster in a dungeon.

Another medium-sized character directly behind the first character - and 20 ft. back - fires an arrow.

Is the penalty to hit essentially -8?
-4 on attack roll for firing into melee without Precise Shot feat
+4 to AC for soft cover from a person in a square directly between shooter & target

That’s what I think.

One of my players thinks RAW should be only the first penalty, so essentially -4 without stacking. I think they stack because one is a penalty to hit and the other bonus to AC.

Neither answer feels entirely right - my answer seems like a technicality, not necessarily logically “right”.

 

[James Gasik]

A medium-sized character is engaged in melee with a medium-sized monster in a dungeon.

Another medium-sized character directly behind the first character - and 20 ft. back - fires an arrow.

Is the penalty to hit essentially -8?
-4 on attack roll for firing into melee without Precise Shot feat
+4 to AC for soft cover from a person in a square directly between shooter & target

That’s what I think.

One of my players thinks RAW should be only the first penalty, so essentially -4 without stacking. I think they stack because one is a penalty to hit and the other bonus to AC.

Neither answer feels entirely right - my answer seems like a technicality, not necessarily logically “right”.

Unfortunately, it is correct that the target gains +4 AC from cover and you're at -4 to hit due to not having Precise Shot. Note that this effects reach attacks as well, as you determine cover for them the same way you do against ranged weapons (there is a caveat for melee attacks made against larger or larger creatures, but this doesn't apply to ranged attacks).

 

[Voadam]

Essentially -8.

Bonuses or penalties of the same type don't stack. Untyped bonuses and penalties stack.

Narratively it is tough to target into an engaged melee. It is even tougher when you have someone directly between you and that engaged melee.

 

[James Gasik]

Essentially -8.

Bonuses or penalties of the same type don't stack. Untyped bonuses and penalties stack.

Narratively it is tough to target into an engaged melee. It is even tougher when you have someone directly between you and that engaged melee.

With the exception of Circumstance penalties.

Circumstance Modifier​

A circumstance bonus (or penalty) arises from specific conditional factors impacting the success of the task at hand. Circumstance bonuses stack with all other bonuses, including other circumstance bonuses, unless they arise from essentially the same source.

 

[Alzrius]

Neither answer feels entirely right - my answer seems like a technicality, not necessarily logically “right”.

Your answer is indeed logically right. The -4 penalty for shooting into melee is because a target in melee is engaging in rapid, unpredictable movement that makes it harder to target them. The +4 bonus to their AC is from someone else being in the way of your shot, forcing you to shoot around them. The two are different circumstances; it's like trying to putt against a moving hole in mini-golf, while the windmill keeps passing in front of where you're trying to place the shot.

 

[haakon1]

Your answer is indeed logically right. The -4 penalty for shooting into melee is because a target in melee is engaging in rapid, unpredictable movement that makes it harder to target them. The +4 bonus to their AC is from someone else being in the way of your shot, forcing you to shoot around them. The two are different circumstances; it's like trying to putt against a moving hole in mini-golf, while the windmill keeps passing in front of where you're trying to place the shot.

Great analogy! I shall share it with my players!