Rules as Law vs. Rules as Guidelines

I define it a bit more simply. The mechanics and fluff must match. If they don't, one has to change so that they do.
Sounds good to me.

So a campaign setting that describes all races as having the inherent ability to fly must create mechanics to match.
Not necessary, depending on the nature of what is being described a natural English description may be sufficient to cover any rulings that are needed.

There are some exceptions for mechanics which create nothing perceivable in the game world, such as what treasure tables monsters in 1e rolled on.
My view is that Treasure Tables are a terse description of what monsters are expected to have in the way of the treasure in a setting.

As for my opinion on rules as law vs. rules as guidelines. They are law for players and guidelines for the DM. Now that doesn't mean that the DM should run around changing them on a whim or even during a campaign(unless it's disruptive), but the DM gets to decide which rules are in play and what those rules do.
I think there are many advantages to a consistent description of the setting and the capabilities of the character. Whether that is expressed in conversational style descriptions or in the mechanics of a game varies based on one's personal taste and preferences of the group.

The implication of my viewpoint is that folks get the best results when they define the setting of the campaign first and then pick the rules that best suits that setting and the interests of the group second.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Not necessary, depending on the nature of what is being described a natural English description may be sufficient to cover any rulings that are needed.
Flight is a mechanical ability in D&D. If you can fly in a setting, you have to have that mechanical ability as well.
My view is that Treasure Tables are a terse description of what monsters are expected to have in the way of the treasure in a setting.
Sure, but was that potion your PC found from table X or P(and no I didn't check to see if either of those actually gave potions)? There's no real correlation that the PCs can make out for that mechanic.
I think there are many advantages to a consistent description of the setting and the capabilities of the character. Whether that is expressed in conversational style descriptions or in the mechanics of a game varies based on one's personal taste and preferences of the group.

The implication of my viewpoint is that folks get the best results when they define the setting of the campaign first and then pick the rules that best suits that setting and the interests of the group second.
I agree.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Another necro thread.

Guidelines.

But in practice, I deal with problems in the rules by changing the rules either before or between sessions. Often this is the result of the player proposing something meaningful for which the rules stand in the way or which the rules don't handle well. I think it's important to have a record of how you intend to arbitrate actions and not depend too much on fiat. Fiat should only be used to arbitrate one off sort of situations where you only have guidelines because it doesn't make sense to have rules for every possible case. "What happens if the PC tries to yank a rug out from under an enemy?" is an example of, "This doesn't need a rule, just a guideline."

In the long run this means that no matter what system I run, it tends to be homebrew as the house rules eventually take over and become as important or more important than the RAW.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Thread necromancy!

100% guidelines. As others have mentioned, picked up the Moldvay B/X, read it, and absorbed it.

“The D&D game has neither losers nor winners, it has only gamers who relish exercising their imagination. The players and the DM share in creating adventures in fantastic lands where heroes abound and magic really works. In a sense, the D&D game has no rules, only rule suggestions. No rule is inviolate, particularly if a new or altered rule will encourage creativity and imagination. The important thing is to enjoy the adventure.”

Tom Moldvay
3 December 1980
 

smuckenfart

Villager
Some believed it could weld a broken dagger because by RAW it can. It's even mentioned in the spell description.

"It will weld broken metallic objects such as a ring, a chain link, a medallion, or a slender dagger, providing but one break exists."

Yep. There's a gap between the two broken pieces. And I don't know what you are looking at. Broken is an adjective as it describes a noun. The dagger(noun) is broken(adjective).

"bro·ken
/ˈbrōkən/

adjective
  1. having been fractured or damaged and no longer in one piece or in working order."

You're ignoring that a small break like in a slender dagger or chain links does in fact ruin those things without being large. You are conflating severe(ruined) with small(size). The break in the slender dagger is no more than an inch or two. It's small despite ruining the dagger. The break in a rope is less than an inch, despite being severe enough to ruin the use of the rope at its former length.

If you changed the RAW to like that on me, I'd be upset that you basically wrecked a spell based on flawed reasoning.
I can see your perspective, but I'm not ignoring the meaning of broken. I'm an English teacher, with regards to language I know a little.
"Broken" is the past participle of "break". True. However...

"It will weld broken metallic objects such as a ring, a chain link, a medallion, or a slender dagger, providing but one break exists."

The first condition, that it will weld said objects, is true ONLY if but one break exists. What is "a break"?
The topic sentence in the PHB description is:

"Mending repairs small breaks or tears in objects (but not warps, such as might be caused by a warp wood spell)."

The body of the paragraph are sentences that support that topic sentence with examples for respective materials. The authors are careful with their word choice, so I don't think it was by accident or without foresight that they used the terms "tear (n.)" as a generic term for soft materials and "break (n.)" for hard materials, the same way you'd use "wound (n.)" to describe an injury. Therefore you should read those sentences and ask, "Does my interpretation support that topic sentence? Which definition best supports that main idea?"

The synonyms for and definition quoted by the dictionary do not refer to any piece that has been completely separated from the original, and also supports not only the reference to "small" but also the fact that this is a level zero spell. There is a level 2 cleric spell, Make Whole, to deal with greater damages to objects.

break
/breɪk/

noun
noun: break; plural noun: breaks

  1. a gap or opening.
    "the track bends left through a break in the hedge"

    Similar:
    gap, opening, space, hole, breach, chink, crack, fissure, cleft, rift, chasm, tear, split, slit, rent, rupture
A fray or a cut in a rope is a small "tear". Severed is the largest tear you can get. A slender dagger can absolutely have a fracture or a crack, or a split along its length, without having the dagger broken in two. How thick is your finger? About the width of a slender dagger? Would you prefer to have a cut finger or a severed finger? Which one is without a doubt not small? You can have a small cut, a medium sized cut, or a large cut, but severed and broken in two are absolutes, unless it's "partially severed", which is still attached and not separated, apart. a.k.a. a break (n.).

To break a dagger in half you need to reduce it to zero HP, do you not, which is ruined/destroyed by the PHB (pg. 165) definition for breaking objects, whether it's a slender dagger or a two handed sword. They both have HP's:

"When an object’s hit points reach 0, it’s ruined."
and
"A damaged object remains fully functional until the item’s hit points are reduced to 0, at which point it is destroyed."

The terms "ruined" and "destroyed" are not terms used to describe a "small" amount of damage, it's the max. It's no good.

Are you're okay with having your weapon sundered at anything but total HP loss... I'm not. If you and your party want to rule that a blade that's lost 50% of its size, broken in two, is as functional as its full size, where size definitely matters for weapon damage, to each their own. In our campaigns, breaking a weapon in half requires sundering it to zero hp.


But, we did rule that as long as the piece that broke off could be considered a small piece, it could be mended back onto the original. Which, to us, was a sensible adjustment to the actual, literal definition of the spell.

I appreciate the response, I enjoy these conversations. respect
 
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They are law for players and guidelines for the DM.
Agreed.

If the rules get in the way of the fun, then I throw them out the window.

At the end of the day, it's my job as the GM to make it fun for everybody at the table (me included!). If a particular rule that day doesn't make that happen, then we roll with something else.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I can see your perspective, but I'm not ignoring the meaning of broken. I'm an English teacher, with regards to language I know a little.
"Broken" is the past participle of "break". True. However...

"It will weld broken metallic objects such as a ring, a chain link, a medallion, or a slender dagger, providing but one break exists."

The first condition, that it will weld said objects, is true ONLY if but one break exists. What is "a break"?
The topic sentence in the PHB description is:

"Mending repairs small breaks or tears in objects (but not warps, such as might be caused by a warp wood spell)."

The body of the paragraph are sentences that support that topic sentence with examples for respective materials. The authors are careful with their word choice, so I don't think it was by accident or without foresight that they used the terms "tear (n.)" as a generic term for soft materials and "break (n.)" for hard materials, the same way you'd use "wound (n.)" to describe an injury. Therefore you should read those sentences and ask, "Does my interpretation support that topic sentence? Which definition best supports that main idea?"

The synonyms for and definition quoted by the dictionary do not refer to any piece that has been completely separated from the original, and also supports not only the reference to "small" but also the fact that this is a level zero spell. There is a level 2 cleric spell, Make Whole, to deal with greater damages to objects.

break
/breɪk/

noun
noun: break; plural noun: breaks

  1. a gap or opening.
    "the track bends left through a break in the hedge"

    Similar:
    gap, opening, space, hole, breach, chink, crack, fissure, cleft, rift, chasm, tear, split, slit, rent, rupture
A fray or a cut in a rope is a small "tear". Severed is the largest tear you can get. A slender dagger can absolutely have a fracture or a crack, or a split along its length, without having the dagger broken in two. How thick is your finger? About the width of a slender dagger? Would you prefer to have a cut finger or a severed finger? Which one is without a doubt not small? You can have a small cut, a medium sized cut, or a large cut, but severed and broken in two are absolutes, unless it's "partially severed", which is still attached and not separated, apart. a.k.a. a break (n.).

To break a dagger in half you need to reduce it to zero HP, do you not, which is ruined/destroyed by the PHB (pg. 165) definition for breaking objects, whether it's a slender dagger or a two handed sword. They both have HP's:

"When an object’s hit points reach 0, it’s ruined."
and
"A damaged object remains fully functional until the item’s hit points are reduced to 0, at which point it is destroyed."

The terms "ruined" and "destroyed" are not terms used to describe a "small" amount of damage, it's the max. It's no good.

Are you're okay with having your weapon sundered at anything but total HP loss... I'm not. If you and your party want to rule that a blade that's lost 50% of its size, broken in two, is as functional as its full size, where size definitely matters for weapon damage, to each their own. In our campaigns, breaking a weapon in half requires sundering it to zero hp.


But, we did rule that as long as the piece that broke off could be considered a small piece, it could be mended back onto the original. Which, to us, was a sensible adjustment to the actual, literal definition of the spell.

I appreciate the response, I enjoy these conversations. respect
I see what you are saying, but I think you are overthinking this. Perhaps because you are an English teacher where those who wrote it are not. The original language can be traced back to 1e and Gygax was absolutely NOT an English teacher. I'm also positive that over the years I've seen modules where a small item was broken in two or more pieces and Mending was mentioned as a way to fix it.

2e changed the wording a bit and added this, "One turn after the spell is cast, the magic of the joining fades, and the effect cannot be magically dispelled.".

4e says, "This spell repairs a single break or tear in an object you touch, such as a broken chain link, two halves of a broken key, a torn cloak, or a leaking wineskin. As long as the break or tear is no larger than 1 foot in any dimension, you mend it, leaving no trace of the former damage."

I think that it's pretty clear from the official sources over the various editions that it was intended from the get go to allow the rejoining of breaks in small objects. There's really no reason in the 5e description to mention a slender dagger if what's being mended is just a small gash in it and not a clean break. The gash will be the same size regardless of the size of the weapon that has the gash in it.

As for "ruin" and "destroyed," I just don't see it as catastrophic as you do. It just needs to be unusable for its original function. A dagger reduced to 0 hit points and snapped in half has taken relatively little physical damage and is ruined/destroyed(reduced to 0 hit points), even though it's really just snapped in two. Hit point being abstract don't mean a whole lot. It only really matter what 0 means, unless you are playing an edition with bloodied where things trigger at other amounts.
 

smuckenfart

Villager

I see what you are saying, but I think you are overthinking this. Perhaps because you are an English teacher where those who wrote it are not. The original language can be traced back to 1e and Gygax was absolutely NOT an English teacher. I'm also positive that over the years I've seen modules where a small item was broken in two or more pieces and Mending was mentioned as a way to fix it.

2e changed the wording a bit and added this, "One turn after the spell is cast, the magic of the joining fades, and the effect cannot be magically dispelled.".

4e says, "This spell repairs a single break or tear in an object you touch, such as a broken chain link, two halves of a broken key, a torn cloak, or a leaking wineskin. As long as the break or tear is no larger than 1 foot in any dimension, you mend it, leaving no trace of the former damage."

I think that it's pretty clear from the official sources over the various editions that it was intended from the get go to allow the rejoining of breaks in small objects. There's really no reason in the 5e description to mention a slender dagger if what's being mended is just a small gash in it and not a clean break. The gash will be the same size regardless of the size of the weapon that has the gash in it.

As for "ruin" and "destroyed," I just don't see it as catastrophic as you do. It just needs to be unusable for its original function. A dagger reduced to 0 hit points and snapped in half has taken relatively little physical damage and is ruined/destroyed(reduced to 0 hit points), even though it's really just snapped in two. Hit point being abstract don't mean a whole lot. It only really matter what 0 means, unless you are playing an edition with bloodied where things trigger at other amounts.
I may be overthinking it as you say, or others may be downplaying the importance of words. I'll take a 50/50 on that. I'm sure Gygax and his team had editors and were much smarter than I, and that they were certain before publishing their works. We can only imagine the fierce debates they had before it ever made the clearinghouse.

We are strictly using 3.5e.

If you cut your finger, you can heal it with a simple spell, but if you sever your finger, it can be healed but not reattached without the higher level regeneration spell. The size is the same, only 1 inch (which is foundation of the slender dagger argument), but it does give credit to the basis that a severed thing is more serious than a cut/abrasion/slice, or whatever equivalent word is used to describe the material, enough that a simple spell isn't suffice.

I keep hearing this argument that they mention a slender dagger... well, does it not make sense that it is the reference point by which players may use to gauge the kind of break can be mended in a larger weapon, like a battle axe. If they used a short sword as an example, then the proportion of that crack in that sword would be beyond what the spell was intended because it's a larger blade. The break in that bastard sword may be no longer crack in a dagger.

Break a bone in your finger, it's small by the standard of measurement, less than one inch, yet there are various types of breaks that differ in degrees of seriousness, a hairline fracture being the least, and a clean break being the max. Breaks in objects also have different degrees of seriousness. The words used to describe a broken bone are identical to the ones you use with a broken dagger. A fracture, a clean break, etc. There isn't a break (single) greater than a clean break, unless you count shattered, which isn't a break. I am not being unreasonable, it's evidence based logic in how we use every day language to describe things. The severity of a type of damage is equivalent to the words used to describe it, of any sized weapon, clothing, wound, etc.

So, are we sure that what we are describing is regarded as "small", or are we just squeezing as much as we can out of it because to us a 1 inch dagger isn't a big deal, but if that 1 inch was your finger....suddenly we have a different perspective.

Cut your finger, you put a bandaid on it.
Gouge your finger, now you're a bit more concerned because it's more serious, no small thing. You go get stitches.
Sever your finger completely off, you go to the hospital to get surgery.

Mending is the bandaid.
Make whole is the surgery.

The zero HP ruling in the players handbook seems very clear cut to me, and I don't see how it supports any other argument without stretching your imagination or completely ignoring it. That to me is forcing a square peg into a round hole.

I don't know what publication this references, but I've found these:
*edit: I see that they're pathfinder publications, I realize now. They are also the only references that go into such detail.

"A damaged object remains functional with the broken condition until the item’s hit points are reduced to 0, at which point it is destroyed.
Damaged (but not destroyed) objects can be repaired with the Craft skill and a number of spells. (eg. make whole or mending)"

And the broken condition is defined here:

"Items that have taken damage in excess of half their total hit points gain the broken condition, meaning they are less effective at their designated task. The broken condition has the following effects, depending upon the item.

  • If the item is a weapon, any attacks made with the item suffer a –2 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Such weapons only score a critical hit on a natural 20 and only deal ×2 damage on a confirmed critical hit.
  • If the item is a suit of armor or a shield, the bonus it grants to AC is halved, rounding down. Broken armor doubles its armor check penalty on skills.
  • If the item is a tool needed for a skill, any skill check made with the item takes a –2 penalty.
  • If the item is a wand or staff, it uses up twice as many charges when used.
  • If the item does not fit into any of these categories, the broken condition has no effect on its use. Items with the broken condition, regardless of type, are worth 75% of their normal value. If the item is magical, it can only be repaired with a mending or make whole spell cast by a character with a caster level equal to or higher than the item’s. Items lose the broken condition if the spell restores the object to half its original hit points or higher. Non-magical items can be repaired in a similar fashion, or through the Craft skill used to create it. Generally speaking, this requires a DC 20 Craft check and 1 hour of work per point of damage to be repaired. Most craftsmen charge one-tenth the item’s total cost to repair such damage (more if the item is badly damaged or ruined)."
This supports the sentence referring to "can mend a broken such and such provided but one break exists", where broken is the condition by which an item is severely damaged but not reduced to zero HP, at which point it is ruined/destroyed and requires the level 2 spell make whole to repair.

In the dnd wiki page, a "Broken Condition" was included described here:

Broken (3.5e Condition)​

This condition is meant to replace the normal effect of Sundering or otherwise destroying items.

Broken[edit]​

This condition is not added to creature, rather it is added to items which hit points have been depleted. A broken item's magical qualities are suppressed until it is repaired. Broken armor double their Armor Check penalty and arcane spell failure, halves their AC Bonus and Max Dexterity bonus. Broken weapon deal minimum damage with each attack and count as improvised weapon.
A broken item can be repaired with spells such as make whole or with a appropriated DC 20 Craft check and 10 minute of work per hit point of the item. An item destroyed by disintegrate or similar effect cannot be repaired but can be restored by a wish or miracle spell.

It's homebrew, so I don't give it as much weight, but it also supports the basis that an object reduced to zero HP is effectively dead, and can be repaired with a Make Whole spell.
 
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Andvari

Hero
Generally I stick with the rules as far as I can remember them. Unless it's an important situation, I don't stop the session to look up a rule. So I make a reasonable ruling on the spot. If it's likely to come up again, I read up on the rules for the next session so I can do it properly. For spells I expect the player casting it to know how it works. If they don't and I don't, I ask them and they have to look it up.

Sometimes a rule just doesn't make sense in a specific situation, or there is a lack of information or context. Then I change or add to it so it works or makes sense. For example, in Pathfinder 2E, the rules say a prone creature can "take cover" to gain an AC bonus against ranged attacks. My players objected to the idea of a creature gaining this bonus against a ranged attacker very close to him. I agreed and changed the rule.

Any errata has to be pretty amazing to not be ignored. There are enough rules without having to seek out minor corrections for them elsewhere. The game is about the peope playing, not the rules. They are a useful tool (mostly) but not the point.
 

jdrakeh

Front Range Warlock
Honestly, it depends on the game for me. Some games (e.g. Rolemaster) work better when the rules are applied strictly as written, while others (e.g. B/X D&D) are more reliant on the rules being used as guidelines.
 

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