Rules for XP costs for spells are reducing their value for players to almost zero

[Mr_Spicoli]

There are a number of spells in the 3.5 edition rules that cost XP to cast. Many lesser powered spells have been added to this list through the evo-and revolutions of the rules to 3.5

Here are a few examples that I was looking at from both player and GM perspective and have thought that they would not be worth using, except for maybe once or twice total in a whole campaign because of their XP cost.

For example the cleric spell Call Lesser Planar Ally, a fourth level spell costs 100 XP to cast each time. I could not see anyone casting this spell more then once or twice while they were 7-9th level tops. Unless the GM was one who gave out XP in overabundance, it would be almost a waste except for a pressing need for that 6 HD ally. Why would you cast this spell if you have monster summoning 4, you can even get 1d3 summoning 3 level creatures. But especially when you get another 2 levels and cast monster summoning 5. Even though this spell is a calling so has a much longer duration, you must pay large amounts of gold to use it in this way, why when you can cast 2 monster summonings per day for instance?

What can be the thought process behind XP deductions for such mid level spells. I can't see how this is a balancing factor as almost no one will want to cast the spell with such a penalty on comparable spell to the monster summonings. It makes the spell a waste, all in the name of a little balance they supposed.

This is the wrong way to go about balancing a game. They should not give negatives to the player abilities/powers. They should teach and explain to GMs how to scale and create equivalent yet entertaining opposition to player actions. It shows a lack of confidence in its own customers and resorting to mathematical hijinks in the form of fines similar to giving out parking tickets in a crack house neighborhood.

As GM I will not give XP deductions for mid level spells such as this, the gold costs yes but not such a wistful application of disproportionate contrivance. Yes a player will be able to cast this spell without an XP penalty, but that player knows their are investigations, plots, deceptions, factional internecine conflicts, explorations, strategic battleplans and journeys of discovery all to be had with sweat and toil, no easier then the DM who cuts down player experience with the acute rule therein.

These rules seem to be the opposite side of the coin to player munchins who think they can get a fast one by a DM who cannot scale the oppositional scenarios to fit whatever ability of the PC. In order to suppress abuse of spells, these rules have become what they hate-munchkin rules from the GMs perspective. A terribly easy and cheesy slash at the players options and freedom.

 

[Prism]

The planar ally spells allow you to summon a creature that is considerably more powerful than the equivalent level summon monster spell and therefore do need some penalty. As it stands there are two penalties applied - the 100xp and the gold for the task. I see no problem with removing the xp penalty but I would consider raising the payment required. The xp penalty is still a small balancer should you wish the waive the payment completely as the DM.

Remember that because of the way experience is calculated, 100xp is worth very little in the long term since lower level characters actually earn more xp for the same CR's and catch up very quickly. In fact the loss of 100xp can actually work out as a benefit

I would suggest being careful with these spells - our party has used them on occasion for difficult encounters and situations. Having a CR7 succubus or a CR6 Bralani with you on an adventure can be a great benefit. By 11th level you can enlist your own CR 13 ghaele, CR14 astral deva or CR12 Leonal. As the DM, you are in control but there does need to be some sort of cost in place to deter the frequent castings of these spells and an xp penalty usuall has that effect

Of course you could simply limit the use of these spells to once per level or something

 

[Graf]

The above poster is basically correct.
These “penalties” are fairly inconsequential but they have a big impact on player psychology because most people don’t like being “behind” the rest of the group.

The spells are better than Monster Summoning but require some nominal penalty and give a DM and parties a chance to have some interesting role-playing. If anything it’s a bit frustrating that there are only two of these spells and they’re clustered right next to each other.

 

[Dross]

I'd also add that the Planar Ally can be useful for things other than combat. Info/Knowledge of foes, places, history and and like can be obtained through a PA. It can be a messenger. It could even go and retreive something that the PC cannot.

 

[Mr_Spicoli]

Excellent replies from everyone. Yes the spell is very useful with all of the options that are possible. Of course to use the more interesting capabilities of the called ally, it will take more time then several minutes and so the cost jumps up quite rapidly.

Any task taking one hour up to one day will cost 3000 GP. A task taking a day or longer will cost 6000GP. I can only see using a one hour task in a very rare extreme circumstance, and even moreso with a task requiring a day.
But then a task that is non hazardous can cost half, or a task that is very hazardous cost one and a half as much. Also, if the task is strongly aligned with the creature's ethos, the payment may be halved or even waived. So the best use of this spell may be the lesser planar ally with the lesser XP cost. Use of planar ally and greater planar ally would be very limited most likely.

I would suggest being careful with these spells - our party has used them on occasion for difficult encounters and situations. Having a CR7 succubus or a CR6 Bralani with you on an adventure can be a great benefit. By 11th level you can enlist your own CR 13 ghaele, CR14 astral deva or CR12 Leonal.

Also, with lesser planar ally, the max HD of the creature is 6, you have to cast a Planar ally 6th level spell to get a creature of 12 HD which costs 250XP, as was implied in the first reply. Now the XP hit is a little more, even if you want to use it for nothing more then a messenger or short duration spy etc.

Remember that because of the way experience is calculated, 100xp is worth very little in the long term since lower level characters actually earn more xp for the same CR's and catch up very quickly. In fact the loss of 100xp can actually work out as a benefit

"
So there is a lot of room for movement within these parameters. Yet, depending on you're gaming style the XP loss can still be a hit against the spell. You must give out XP for mission objectives, creativity and ideas, role-playing, solving mysteries, AND tactical-strategic combat in proportion.

The Leadership feat which can be taken at 6th level, seems a vastly better choice then casting the various planar ally spells more then a couple of times. A character at 6th level with a +2 charisma bonus can attract a cohort of 5th level. Lets say the character is a druid or cleric or warlock so he can attract a 5th level cohort (which would be a spellcaster from those examples)that stays with him indefinitely, with no XP nor gold cost, without having to cast anything per day. Of course the GM can choose not use this feat, but you can choose whether to use all other feats and spells as well.

One of the concerns with this spell is that for people who are using the core books only, they're are few spell options in the first place, and this really limits the usefulness of the those spells in the Players Handbook. If the group is not using supplements like the Spell Compendium, spellcasters have very limited spell options.

 

[ThirdWizard]

So there is a lot of room for movement within these parameters. Yet, depending on you're gaming style the XP loss can still be a hit against the spell. You must give out XP for mission objectives, creativity and ideas, role-playing, solving mysteries, AND tactical-strategic combat in proportion.

Due to a weird loophole in the way 3.5 does XP awards, it is possible that casting planar ally will put you ahead of everyone else in XP in the long run. Say you end a session having almost leveled, and everyone else levels up. Next session, because you're a level lower than them, you gain +25% XP more than them (or something like that) putting you now above their XP totals.

Not that most DMs would allow that to happen, and not to say that the PC should try and game the XP tables like this. What I'm saying is that the penalty will not last that long. You're getting a spell that's more powerful than other spells of that level and taking a temporary XP penalty, which will probably at most put you behind everyone in levels for one session (if that). And, that's with just normal monster-killing XP.

 

[Prism]

You are right with your opinion of usage of these spells. The probably will only be used once or twice over the course of the campaign but so will a great many cleric spells. Thats the beauty for the cleric spell list in that its so flexible since you can change memorized spells each day from such a large list

These spells are reserved for those times you need to take out the big bad guy and need the extra punch of a celestial which is a few CR higher than you. An EL 15 encounter vs 11th level characters is very different when you have a ghaele or such like with you. Or for those times you can't find something out yourself or deliver that message.

Maybe I'd compare the xp cost to the cost of a single use magic item that might win a fight for you rather than something like leadership which is useful in a different way

 

[moritheil]

My first impression upon reading the title was that probably your "hat of d02" would "know no limit."

The Pact and Call Ally spells exist as drastic measures (theoretically, Gate is a drastic measure too, but people seem to toss it around with wild abandon.) The concept is that it's better to lose a little bit of XP than to die and lose a lot of XP. When a party is sure it is sorely outclassed, spells like Pact and Call Ally allow the DM to avoid a TPK.

Of course, many people will use anything for advantage, which results in the current situation.

 

[mvincent]

they would not be worth using, except for maybe once or twice total in a whole campaign because of their XP cost.

For example the cleric spell Call Lesser Planar Ally, a fourth level spell costs 100 XP to cast each time. I could not see anyone casting this spell more then once or twice while they were 7-9th level tops.

As mentioned these spells are not supposed to be used often, but not because of the XP cost so much as the GP cost.

XP is a self-renewing resource (much like hit points). If you burn some, you will eventually get them all back because you earn more XP than your fellow party members if you are ever lower level than them.

Conversly, gold is not as self-renewing. If you lose some, you will forever be behind where you could have been. Couple that with the fact that CR's are based purely on your XP (and disregard your wealth level), and the loss of GP can be a big hit.

 

[moritheil]

As mentioned these spells are not supposed to be used often, but not because of the XP cost so much as the GP cost.

XP is a self-renewing resource (much like hit points). If you burn some, you will eventually get them all back because you earn more XP than your fellow party members if you are ever lower level than them.

Conversly, gold is not as self-renewing. If you lose some, you will forever be behind where you could have been. Couple that with the fact that CR's are based purely on your XP (and disregard your wealth level), and the loss of GP can be a big hit.

That depends on whether or not your DM allows people to work during down time (and whether or not your DM allows voluntary down time at all.) Hmm, now I'm curious as to how many DMs allow voluntary down time and how many allot extra XP for a player who falls behind in level due to his or her own actions.