Question 1)
How would you handle bullrushing the defender into another creature's square:
A = Bullrusher
B = Defender
C = some other creature
AB -> -> -> -> C
-> -> AB -> -> C
-> -> -> -> AB C
-> -> -> -> ->AB/C
First, if there is a clear way to handle this outlined in the rules, let me know. I did not find anything definitive.
Second, there seems to me to be several different scenarios, all calling for explicit rulings:
1. A pushes B into C's space and stops the bull rush
2. A pushes B through and past C's space and stops the bull rush while in C's space
3. A pushes B through C's space continuing the bull rush beyond C's space
In each case, both A and B obviously ought to provoke movement AoO from C.
However, it is in how to handle the doubly occupied space that concerns me. To me at least it seems that C should have an option much like in Overrun to either avoid the bull rush or interact with it. I am not what to do about avoiding the bull rush. There seems to me 2 competing arguments: (1) B lost to A in the opposed roll, so A is in control and ought to be able to purposefully hit C, (2) A and B are actively opposing one another, hence the limit in distance based upon B's opposed roll, and so A should not be able to purposefully direct B into C. There is also the issue of awareness of C (but that opens too many cans of worms to my tasteds).
I don't think the mechanic ought to involve an attack roll on A's part. That neglects the mechanics of Overrun a bit too much I think. I was thinking something along the lines of a reflex save for C to avoid AB with the DC equal to A's bull rush roll - 5 for every 5' moved beyond the first 5'. This would take into account the attempt to push B into C but also B's opposition to A - at least I think
.
So if you accept this version of avoidance, what happens when C fails the save. Well obviously C would interact in some way with the bullrush. C could join the bullrush. I was thinking of something similar to joining a grapple for this. Alternatively, you might rule that C is knocked prone, or perhaps B is knocked prone, or perhaps both. Not to sure what to do about this. Using the mechanic of overrun, I guess you could not say that a successful save meant that C moved to a different square. However, what then happens if B stops in C's square. I guess B would fall prone and C would be standing. What happens though if A stops in C's square. Should A fall prone? Should C?
Aside from all of those questions, what happens if A tries to push B into C's square and C tries to join the bull rush. I don't think the aid another action here would make too much sense. The +2 would either be moot, or just stop the grapple as the rolls have already been made. I am not sure statistically it would be fair to have A and C make opposed rolls. For one, it completely forgets about B. Perhaps C could make what would be an opposed roll and then apply that number to some function and add it to B's result. But then we are forgetting about the initial 5 free feet a bull rush grants abstracting ourselves from B again. Yeah, guess you could say I really don't know what to do in this case. I recall some sort of mechanic in 2E where you added a 1/4 of the lesser roll to an attempt to do something together to the higher roll but have not looked at those rules in so long I could definitely not cite a reference.
What happens in real life in terms of phsysics with this stuff? We might look to football practice for an example. When the linemen practice they do so against that ... I don't know what its called. Its got all of these padded posts arranged in a line perpendicular to the linemen's movement. Anyway, it seems that each additional lineman is additive to the effect of moving the structure. Certainly, A attempting to bull rush both B and C together should be very difficult. So maybe C's roll could just be added directly to B's. Thoughts?
Question 2)
How would you handle bullrushing several defenders at once:
____
|AA| = Bullrusher
|AA|
B = Defender
____......
|AA| ->.B
|AA|.....B
____
|AA|B
|AA|B
I would think that you'd make a touch attack against each (provoking AoO as normal) and for each you hit that you'd then resolve opposed rolls. But again, how would you handle those opposed rolls. I would think A would roll 1 and then compare to each of the two B's. But how would the two B's rolls help eachother. Or should they just make one roll and then each add something to it?
By comparison, how would you handle the case if A were not much larger than B but had something like a 15' pole and wanted to bull rush several B's:
..|.....B
A|.->.B
..|.....B
..|B
A|B
..|B
I would think the mechanic would be the same. Although what it is escapes me
The above case would of course lead to:
..|B
A|
..|B
In this case A would provoke AoO from B not for initiating a bull rush but because of moving through B's threated squares according to the original mechanics of a bull rush, so that seems fine. But what about this:
..|B
A|
..|
If the first two pole cases work, I don't see why the third wouldn't. But now this is getting a bit beyond the mechanics of bullrushing. I suppose it is legit in real world mechanics. But this seems to beg for abuse (at least possibly)
Question 3)
How would you handle the following:
| = wall or some stationary object
A -> B |
AB|
I think B should take some sort of damage. But how much? Perhaps something along the lines of falling damage? For every 10 feet bull rushed, take 1d6 dmg. However this doesn't make too much sense because if B's opposed roll subtracts distance from A's bull rush (if of course A wins) then it would seem that the bull rush is slowing down over time, or at the very least not speeding up. I don't think a flat dmg bonus would work because there would have to be something taking into account how hard A hit B (i.e. how much A beat B's opposed roll). If the wall as right next to B and A basically shoved B into it and would have been able to move another 15 feet, that is alot different than only having been able to move him 5'. Perhaps some die of damage relative to the materail being bull rushed into + some number based on how much A beat B's roll - some number based on how much distance already has been moved? If you also let A add his str to that it would seem to in some sense be allowing A to double the str value because it was already factored into the opposed roll.
This also raised the question of what happens when that wall is spiked or in some other sense dangerous beyond just being hard. It would seem that B ought to not get his dex bonus when being shoved into the wall and then in some sense take a bit more damage from a spike that if the spike was being wielded as a weapon and B was able to normally try and prevent attacks. Perhaps autocrit?
Thanks for all your thoughts in advance.
Gaiden
How would you handle bullrushing the defender into another creature's square:
A = Bullrusher
B = Defender
C = some other creature
AB -> -> -> -> C
-> -> AB -> -> C
-> -> -> -> AB C
-> -> -> -> ->AB/C
First, if there is a clear way to handle this outlined in the rules, let me know. I did not find anything definitive.
Second, there seems to me to be several different scenarios, all calling for explicit rulings:
1. A pushes B into C's space and stops the bull rush
2. A pushes B through and past C's space and stops the bull rush while in C's space
3. A pushes B through C's space continuing the bull rush beyond C's space
In each case, both A and B obviously ought to provoke movement AoO from C.
However, it is in how to handle the doubly occupied space that concerns me. To me at least it seems that C should have an option much like in Overrun to either avoid the bull rush or interact with it. I am not what to do about avoiding the bull rush. There seems to me 2 competing arguments: (1) B lost to A in the opposed roll, so A is in control and ought to be able to purposefully hit C, (2) A and B are actively opposing one another, hence the limit in distance based upon B's opposed roll, and so A should not be able to purposefully direct B into C. There is also the issue of awareness of C (but that opens too many cans of worms to my tasteds).
I don't think the mechanic ought to involve an attack roll on A's part. That neglects the mechanics of Overrun a bit too much I think. I was thinking something along the lines of a reflex save for C to avoid AB with the DC equal to A's bull rush roll - 5 for every 5' moved beyond the first 5'. This would take into account the attempt to push B into C but also B's opposition to A - at least I think
.So if you accept this version of avoidance, what happens when C fails the save. Well obviously C would interact in some way with the bullrush. C could join the bullrush. I was thinking of something similar to joining a grapple for this. Alternatively, you might rule that C is knocked prone, or perhaps B is knocked prone, or perhaps both. Not to sure what to do about this. Using the mechanic of overrun, I guess you could not say that a successful save meant that C moved to a different square. However, what then happens if B stops in C's square. I guess B would fall prone and C would be standing. What happens though if A stops in C's square. Should A fall prone? Should C?
Aside from all of those questions, what happens if A tries to push B into C's square and C tries to join the bull rush. I don't think the aid another action here would make too much sense. The +2 would either be moot, or just stop the grapple as the rolls have already been made. I am not sure statistically it would be fair to have A and C make opposed rolls. For one, it completely forgets about B. Perhaps C could make what would be an opposed roll and then apply that number to some function and add it to B's result. But then we are forgetting about the initial 5 free feet a bull rush grants abstracting ourselves from B again. Yeah, guess you could say I really don't know what to do in this case. I recall some sort of mechanic in 2E where you added a 1/4 of the lesser roll to an attempt to do something together to the higher roll but have not looked at those rules in so long I could definitely not cite a reference.
What happens in real life in terms of phsysics with this stuff? We might look to football practice for an example. When the linemen practice they do so against that ... I don't know what its called. Its got all of these padded posts arranged in a line perpendicular to the linemen's movement. Anyway, it seems that each additional lineman is additive to the effect of moving the structure. Certainly, A attempting to bull rush both B and C together should be very difficult. So maybe C's roll could just be added directly to B's. Thoughts?
Question 2)
How would you handle bullrushing several defenders at once:
____
|AA| = Bullrusher
|AA|
B = Defender
____......
|AA| ->.B
|AA|.....B
____
|AA|B
|AA|B
I would think that you'd make a touch attack against each (provoking AoO as normal) and for each you hit that you'd then resolve opposed rolls. But again, how would you handle those opposed rolls. I would think A would roll 1 and then compare to each of the two B's. But how would the two B's rolls help eachother. Or should they just make one roll and then each add something to it?
By comparison, how would you handle the case if A were not much larger than B but had something like a 15' pole and wanted to bull rush several B's:
..|.....B
A|.->.B
..|.....B
..|B
A|B
..|B
I would think the mechanic would be the same. Although what it is escapes me
The above case would of course lead to:
..|B
A|
..|B
In this case A would provoke AoO from B not for initiating a bull rush but because of moving through B's threated squares according to the original mechanics of a bull rush, so that seems fine. But what about this:
..|B
A|
..|
If the first two pole cases work, I don't see why the third wouldn't. But now this is getting a bit beyond the mechanics of bullrushing. I suppose it is legit in real world mechanics. But this seems to beg for abuse (at least possibly)
Question 3)
How would you handle the following:
| = wall or some stationary object
A -> B |
AB|
I think B should take some sort of damage. But how much? Perhaps something along the lines of falling damage? For every 10 feet bull rushed, take 1d6 dmg. However this doesn't make too much sense because if B's opposed roll subtracts distance from A's bull rush (if of course A wins) then it would seem that the bull rush is slowing down over time, or at the very least not speeding up. I don't think a flat dmg bonus would work because there would have to be something taking into account how hard A hit B (i.e. how much A beat B's opposed roll). If the wall as right next to B and A basically shoved B into it and would have been able to move another 15 feet, that is alot different than only having been able to move him 5'. Perhaps some die of damage relative to the materail being bull rushed into + some number based on how much A beat B's roll - some number based on how much distance already has been moved? If you also let A add his str to that it would seem to in some sense be allowing A to double the str value because it was already factored into the opposed roll.
This also raised the question of what happens when that wall is spiked or in some other sense dangerous beyond just being hard. It would seem that B ought to not get his dex bonus when being shoved into the wall and then in some sense take a bit more damage from a spike that if the spike was being wielded as a weapon and B was able to normally try and prevent attacks. Perhaps autocrit?
Thanks for all your thoughts in advance.
Gaiden
