Rules that never made sense to you?

[pemerton]

You can initiate the grapple, which happens in place of a melee attack (in an attack action, charge action, full attack action, or AoO). But the free action is a separate action that you are eligible to take if you reach a certain point in the grapple sequence.

<snip>

So while you can use grapple as an AoO, as written, you can't use it very effectively...

This prompts two questions:

The first is, is grapple so much more strong than the other permitted attack actions that it needs to be limited in this manner? In particular, would any harm to balance be caused by subsituting "immediate" for "free" in the characterisation of the action whereby one establishes a hold (I hope I've nominated the right adjective!)?

This is not a rhetorical but a genuine question - I haven't seen grapple used enough (it's a hideous mechanic, after all) to get a sense for this.

The second question (which to some extent presupposes a negative answer to the first): Is the quoted argument above your own inference, or official clarificaiton/errata?

If the latter, I feel a little sorry that the designers have got so caught up in their own technicalities. If the former, I can't help but think that your reasoning is placing a burden of technicality on the rules that I feel they were never written to handle.

Professional drafters of contracts and statutes can't get things precise enough that they can be interpreted without the courts having to allow some sort of margin of common sense. Surely the same thing applies here?

 

[Hypersmurf]

If the latter, I feel a little sorry that the designers have got so caught up in their own technicalities.

A comment from Skip Williams at one point was that while free actions can't be taken outside of your own turn, that doesn't apply to free actions that are inherently part of other actions... like a wolf's Trip ability, or Improved Grab, or this free action from Grapple.

I suspect this is more likely an 'Oops!' cover, and what really should have been said was "Certain free actions which are effectively an inherent part of another action should never have been designated free actions in the first place".

-Hyp.

 

[pemerton]

A comment from Skip Williams at one point was that while free actions can't be taken outside of your own turn, that doesn't apply to free actions that are inherently part of other actions... like a wolf's Trip ability, or Improved Grab, or this free action from Grapple.

I suspect this is more likely an 'Oops!' cover, and what really should have been said was "Certain free actions which are effectively an inherent part of another action should never have been designated free actions in the first place".

That makes sense. But you don't run it that way? Your tone suggests that you agree with your interpretive suggestion, ie, that you agree they should not have been designated as free actions.

 

[Sheltem]

If the PC wizard loses his spellbook and obtains a replacement spellbook, he can't cast any of the spells in the replacement spellbook, unless those spells were already in the PC spellbook. Or until he copies the spells into yet another spellbook.

iirc he would have to make a spellcraft check to learn spells which are not "his own". If he succeeds on a spellcraft check (DC 25+highest spell level) he can use the spellbook as if it was his own. Maybe it is easier for single spells?

 

[KarinsDad]

And since you can take free actions whenever you take another (i.e., one) action, the fact that Readying allows you to take one action (again, the word "only" does not appear in the text) is not a bar to taking additional free actions.

You are stating that the general rule overrides the specific rule.

That is not how the rules work.

The general rule is that you can take multiple free actions on normal rounds during other actions.

The specfic rule is that a ready action allows one action to be done: free, move, or standard. The Ready section takes priority over the actions that can happen during a normal turn.


There is a reason Frank and Hyp were discussing only a single action during a readied action. I quoted the single action during a Ready rules for you. You can try to interpret it a different way for your game, but that is not what those rules state.


Read the Ready Action section on page 160 of the PHB. The entire section discusses the action (singular) that a readying character is allowed to take.


Additionally, there are other rules that support my POV:

The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.

You do not get a turn when the Ready action comes up, you get an action.

Free actions don’t take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn.

...

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn.

You cannot take a free action when it isn't your turn. It isn't your turn when you take a Readied action. The initiative changes so that in future rounds, that initiative then becomes the point in time when you get your turn, but literally, it is not your turn yet. You have already taken you turn with a Readied Action.

You also cannot take free actions (with the exception of speaking and other free actions that specifically state that you can do so) during an AoO either. It isn't your turn during an AoO either, even though you get to perform a specific type of action at that point in time.


Note: Page 47 of the most recent FAQ also states that free actions (except Speaking) cannot be done as part of a Ready Action.

 

[pawsplay]

You can initiate the grapple, which happens in place of a melee attack (in an attack action, charge action, full attack action, or AoO). But the free action is a separate action that you are eligible to take if you reach a certain point in the grapple sequence.

Just as you cannot drop your dagger (free action), Quick Draw your greatsword (free action), and make an attack when an AoO is provoked (since, with certain exceptions like speaking or casting PHB Feather Fall, free actions cannot be taken outside your turn), you cannot take the free action required to establish a hold when grappling as an AoO.

So while you can use grapple as an AoO, as written, you can't use it very effectively...

-Hyp.

I read that passage as the grapple granting a free action, rather than simply requiring one. It says, "Do this," so that is what you do.

 

[Vegepygmy]

You are stating that the general rule overrides the specific rule.

No, I'm stating that the "specific rule" exists only in your imagination. The rules do not say that you can take only one standard, move, or free action when you Ready. They say that you can take one. They also say that whenever you can take one, you can take additional free actions.

There is no conflict.

There is a reason Frank and Hyp were discussing only a single action during a readied action. I quoted the single action during a Ready rules for you. You can try to interpret it a different way for your game, but that is not what those rules state.

Please don't pretend that your interpretation of the rules is any less of an interpretation than my interpretation of the rules.

Additionally, there are other rules that support my POV:

Sorry, but I fail to see how the rules you quoted support your interpretation over mine.

You can normally take as many free actions as your DM will allow whenever you take another action. Readying allows you to take an action when it isn't your turn.

It's just that simple.

You do not get a turn when the Ready action comes up, you get an action.

As I just finished saying, you don't need a "turn" to take additional free actions; you just need to be taking an action.

You cannot take a free action when it isn't your turn.

Provide a rules quote for that claim and I'll concede the matter. (Hint: one of your own rules quotes above contradicts you.)

You also cannot take free actions (with the exception of speaking and other free actions that specifically state that you can do so) during an AoO either.

That is not in dispute. An AoO is not an action.

It isn't your turn during an AoO either, even though you get to perform a specific type of action at that point in time.

That specific type being "not an"?

Note: Page 47 of the most recent FAQ also states that free actions (except Speaking) cannot be done as part of a Ready Action.

That does lend the weight of authority to your position, but we all know the FAQ is fallible.

 

[KarinsDad]

Provide a rules quote for that claim and I'll concede the matter. (Hint: one of your own rules quotes above contradicts you.)

A specific rules exception is not a contradiction.

But supporting my claim of Free Actions only during your turn, no problem:

You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action.

...

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn.

Swift actions can be taken ANY TIME you can take a Free Action with the exception that you are allowed only one per turn.

Unlike Immediate Actions, you cannot take a Swift Action when it is not your turn. Hence, you cannot take a Free Action when it is not your turn (unless a specific rules quote indicates otherwise like with a single Readied Free Action). Otherwise, there would be a contradiction of rules here.

Your interpretation requires a contradiction of these rules. Mine does not.


When there is a strong implication in the rules (as in the case of a free action only during your turn), you have to look at the rules at a whole to determine if the implication is valid or not. We have multiple places here where there is direct indication that Free Actions are only normally done with other actions during your normal turn.


PHB page 135:

Every round on your character's turn, you may take a standard action and a move action (in either order), two move actions, or one full-round action. You can also perform one or more free actions along with any other action, as your DM allows.

Just like full-round actions here, free actions are only allowed by this quote on your character's turn.


Rules of the Game:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a

Note that you can take a free action only during your turn.

There are multiple entries of this within Rules of the Game.


Your interpretation requires: 1) a contradiction between the language of free, swift, and immediate actions; 2) the quotes on page 135 and 139 refer to outside your turn; 3) an assumption that the "turn" language of free actions and of readied actions means "action", not "turn"; 4) the specific language of the speaking free action is not explicit language; 5) the singular language of Readied Actions is not explicit; 6) the words "normal" and "normally" have no meaning in the interpretation; 7) feats that explicitly specify that you can normally do something as a free action during your turn have totally redundant information in them (e.g. Combat Defense); 8) the FAQ is in error here; 9) the Rules of the Game are in error here.


You have to read the entire ruleset here:

Action Types

...

In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one or more free actions.

...

Free Action
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally.

Like page 135, this only discusses your actions in a normal round. Not AoOs. Not Readied Actions. Not actions outside your normal round or normal turn. The one quote you are relying on for your interpretation is imbedded within the description of what happens in a normal round under Action Types.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I read that passage as the grapple granting a free action, rather than simply requiring one. It says, "Do this," so that is what you do.

Let's say that instead of "Move into your opponent's space - this does not count against your movement for the round", step 4 instead said "Move into your opponent's space as a move action".

Would you consider that in this case, step 4 could only be performed if the character had a move action available? Or would you consider that the character could stand from prone (move action), initiate a grapple by taking the attack action (standard action), and then move into the opponent's space (second move action)?

To me, that wording would suggest that the character can only take a move action to complete step 4 if he has a move action available; similarly, the character can only take the free action to establish a hold if he has a free action available.

-Hyp.

 

[moritheil]

-10 you're dead is even worse than -1 to -9 bleeding out. it seems to always come down to character A has < 10 hit points left and Monster B hits for 30+ damage, and there's nothing anyone can do to prevent it from hitting character A. Ever. Gets worse the higher level you are, because hit points don't seem to scale as fast as damage taken, and to hit scales much faster than AC. Add in the fact that you need lots of magic just to not fall too far behind..

I'm not sure I agree with that. From 1-10, AC increase is astronomically higher than to-hit increase (assuming you optimize AC via spells/abilities/feats and there are no items of permanent True Strike or the like. Making a 1st-level character with AC 40 is pretty tough, but a 6th-level character can easily have AC 60+ for four combats/day.) At epic levels, defensive buffs go up much faster than BAB, but one no longer relies on BAB, so it gets trickier to say definitively.