Rules that never made sense to you?

[Nail]

The lawyers who are heads of law firms are rainmakers. Always. Virtually without exception. They are people persons. It is much more common to find a weak trial lawyer at the head of a firm than a poor rainmaker. And most lawyers don't ever try cases. Ever. That's not their job.

Didn't know the definition of slang "rainmaker" untill just now. Thanks.

Rainmaker: rain·mak·er
–noun 1. (among American Indians) a medicine man who by various rituals and incantations seeks to cause rain.
2. a person who induces rainfall by using various scientific techniques, as the seeding of clouds with silver iodide crystals from an airplane.
3. Slang. an executive or lawyer with exceptional ability to attract clients, use political connections, increase profits, etc.: The president has several rainmakers among his advisers.

 

[ivocaliban]

But the issue here is not whether the exectuioner is scary, or small "i" intimidating. The question is whether they could use that to convince someone who had a choice what to do. I don't think the executioner wants you to run away, but that is what his form of scariness pushes you towards. He is scary, he is not trying to use the Intimidate skill to get you to do what he wants. There is a difference.

I understand your point. I'm not arguing that Charisma can't work. I am arguing that it doesn't cover all the bases.

In the very description of Intimidiate from the PHB 3.5 it says you can use the skill "to frighten an opponent" (p. 76). It's not only about forcing a choice, sometimes it really is about being scary and causing your opponent to be afraid of you (via demoralize opponent). According to the rules as they are, if you met a waifish ballerina (human) at one end of an alley and a big dock worker (human) at the other end...the ballerina would have a better chance of frightening you.

Now, if you have an irrational fear of ballerinas I can understand this, but otherwise...the big guy should be better at frightening an opponent. This is true in nature as well. Otherwise you wouldn't have so many birds and animals that try and make themselves look bigger to scare off attackers.

Again, I'm willing to accept that Intimidate (Cha) works in many, many cases. It just doesn't account for this particular aspect.

 

[ivocaliban]

Didn't know the definition of slang "rainmaker" untill just now. Thanks.

Rainmaker: rain·mak·er
–noun 1. (among American Indians) a medicine man who by various rituals and incantations seeks to cause rain.
2. a person who induces rainfall by using various scientific techniques, as the seeding of clouds with silver iodide crystals from an airplane.
3. Slang. an executive or lawyer with exceptional ability to attract clients, use political connections, increase profits, etc.: The president has several rainmakers among his advisers.

In two words: Denny Crane!

 

[Drawmack]

I'm a professor at a local college.

In math, we have two course paths:

This pattern is repeated in the English department:

Is there some sort of requirement the student must meet to get into the advanced path?

 

[KarinsDad]

Is there some sort of requirement the student must meet to get into the advanced path?

Usually good grades or SAT scores in high school.

The combined Calculus course was an option I had way back in the 70s when I entered college.

 

[Storm Raven]

I understand your point. I'm not arguing that Charisma can't work. I am arguing that it doesn't cover all the bases.

In the very description of Intimidiate from the PHB 3.5 it says you can use the skill "to frighten an opponent" (p. 76). It's not only about forcing a choice, sometimes it really is about being scary and causing your opponent to be afraid of you (via demoralize opponent). According to the rules as they are, if you met a waifish ballerina (human) at one end of an alley and a big dock worker (human) at the other end...the ballerina would have a better chance of frightening you.

Being demoralized is different from being afraid. Lots of people are afraid, and yet not demoralized. The Intimidate skill is about making the one into the other, to your benefit. Let's look at what the SRD says about the Intimidate skill:

Intimidate (Cha)

Check
You can change another’s behavior with a successful check. Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated. (That is, the target retains its normal attitude, but will chat, advise, offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated. See the Diplomacy skill, above, for additional details.) The effect lasts as long as the target remains in your presence, and for 1d6×10 minutes afterward. After this time, the target’s default attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly (or, if normally unfriendly, to hostile).

If you fail the check by 5 or more, the target provides you with incorrect or useless information, or otherwise frustrates your efforts.

Demoralize Opponent
You can also use Intimidate to weaken an opponent’s resolve in combat. To do so, make an Intimidate check opposed by the target’s modified level check (see above). If you win, the target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. You can intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and that can see you.

Action
Varies. Changing another’s behavior requires 1 minute of interaction. Intimidating an opponent in combat is a standard action.

Try Again
Optional, but not recommended because retries usually do not work. Even if the initial check succeeds, the other character can be intimidated only so far, and a retry doesn’t help. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly resolved to resist the intimidator, and a retry is futile.

Special
You gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are larger than your target. Conversely, you take a -4 penalty on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are smaller than your target.

A character immune to fear can’t be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures.

If you have the Persuasive feat, you get a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.

Synergy
If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.

Forst off, I don't see anything about scaring someone. I see a lot about changing people's behaviour. A burly half-orc foaming at the mouth with a greataxe can scare you, but he might have a hard time making you do what he wants you to if it is something other than "run away" or "fight me" or "give me your money". The key in the Intimidate skill is persuasion, leveraging your advantages to make the other guy do what you want them to do. This should not be conflated with the small "i" word intimidate used in common parlance. The Intimidate skill is a game definition, and doesn;t mean "scaring someone".

Now, if you have an irrational fear of ballerinas I can understand this, but otherwise...the big guy should be better at frightening an opponent. This is true in nature as well. Otherwise you wouldn't have so many birds and animals that try and make themselves look bigger to scare off attackers.

Well now, that would be the reason for the size bonus and penalty wouldn't it? And circumstance modifiers too. But, on the other hand, in a D&D world, big does not always equal "more powerful". I suspect that the baseline assumptions for people living in a world where magic was real would be very different on these types of issues.

 

[ivocaliban]

Being demoralized is different from being afraid.

And yet:

A character immune to fear can’t be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures.

So, it's not about fear (though it does use the words "frighten an opponent" in the PHB 3.5e), but if you're immune to fear it doesn't work?

 

[Kodam]

Hi!

Flamestrike represents the fury of your god, half of its damage comes directly from your divine sponsor. Still this is no aligned spell! Why not? Shouldn't it be aligned as your god is?

Kodam

 

[KarinsDad]

Most of them are very charismatic. That is why they are successful partners in law firms. You don't get to be a senior partner without being a rainmaker. You don't get to be a rainmaker unless you can skillfully acquire new clients on a regular basis. There is no doubt but that most of these individuals are highly charismatic. That's what got them their perceived power. And it is all about how they use that power, which is where their charisma comes into play.

This is a logical flaw. Because they are Charismatic, they are Intimidating.

These lawyers are rainmakers because they are charismatic, not because they are intimidating. If they get their position due to their charisma, it is a logical fallacy to assume that their charisma (which is a positive force that attracts clients) is used negatively to intimidate coworkers and others.

Charisma might get them their power base, but it is their power base which intimidates others.

Power intimidates. Charisma does not equate to power. It can be used to acquire power, but it does not equate to it. That is the logical fallacy of the Intimidate skill as defined in the rules. According to the Intimidate rules, the effeminate Bard who takes no ranks in Intimidate is more intimidating than the massive Barbarian who takes no ranks in Intimidate, even though the Barbarian exudes power. That's backwards. And it is especially backwards for the Demoralize Opponent aspect of Intimidate.


Several members of the U.S. Supreme Court are not overly charismatic (e.g. Ginsburg), but they wield a huge amount of power and are intimidating to anyone who enters their court or even meets them in a social setting.

You are equating Charisma to Power due to the fact that Charisma can lead to Power. But, this is not a logical progression and the two are not the same.

In fact, you appear to be espousing that Power leads to Charisma and that definitely is not the case.

 

[Storm Raven]

So, it's not about fear (though it does use the words "frighten an opponent" in the PHB 3.5e), but if you're immune to fear it doesn't work?

It's about using fear or potential fear as a persuasive tool. Fear itself is insufficient. Fear just triggers a fight or flight response. The Intimidate skill is all about making that response do something other than those things.