Running a Business rules revamp

[Cabral]

So I bought the DMG 2 for two primary reasons: Item templates and Business rules (I kinda wish I went with the Spell Compendium :\)

Anyway, I explain to my wife who would like a shop to sell shoes (and weapons and armor) ... It went about like this

Okay, so you're operating out of a horse and carriage so that's -2. you'll need to plop down 8,000 gp capital the roll for profit. because it's low risk and low resources your total modifier is 14 and you can take 10. so 5 gp loss most of the time.

What? Why would I do that? Here's some armor ... oh and here take some of my money too

Well it's loss, you're not giving it to the customers ... and in one more level you can take 1 more rank to break even

Great ... because that's my goal to break even

But if you take 5 ranks each in Appraise and Diplomacy you'll get a +1 too so that'll mean 5 gold profit

5 gold? but what if the item I'm selling is not worth 5g? like shoes. How can I make 5g on shoes per sale?

No. It's per month

<laughter> Yeah, we're done

...
So how do I fix it so it's rewarding? I want it to be lucrative enough to risk the 8k to start as well be worth any time (RL time) and skill ranks devoted to the business. Even for a "Low risk" (= low loss, low profit). In addition I want to take into account what is being sold.

My only thoughts so far was to base the profit loss value on the average value of the roll and to add a +1 to every additional "business" in the same location. (ie, you sell shoes and armor it's two "businesses" and the each get +1. If you have a Tavern/Inn/Brewery it's three businesses and they each get +2)

Any thoughts?

 

[Stalker0]

Cabral, not to toot my own horn, but I have just the thing for you. I've already revamped all of the rules, and imho they work a lot better.

I've kept pretty much all of the mechanics, just adjusted the scaling here and there. I'm writting it all out into a nice format, when I'm done your welcome to a copy.

 

[azhrei_fje]

Okay, Stalker0, I'll be looking for it, too. Sooner would be better than later. Will we see it before Christmas?

 

[Cabral]

That's great Stalker0, I'd love to get your input. I think for now that I want to go with modifications to the DMG2 rules rather than a whole new system.

Additional profit check modifiers:
Owner has no ranks in one secondary skills               -1
Owner has no ranks in both secondary skills              -2
Per each additional businesss owner has at same location +1
Business has an exotic selection/flair                   +1
Previous profit check succeeded                          +1
Business has a "signature item/service"1                 +1
1 a signature item/service is one that the business is known for or is trying to be known for.

Can you think of any other modifiers?

Profit or loss by risk
Risk Level     Profit/loss
Low            Profit rating x avg item value/10
Medium         Profit rating x avg item value/3
High           Profit rating x avg item value

I want to tie the profit to the items being sold but I also don't want someone to say "yeah, I sell robes of the Archmagi only"

 

[devilbat]

I'd love to see a copy of that as well Stalker0.

 

[Imagicka]

Greetings...

Well, first of all I don't think that running a business in a medieval fantasy paradigm setting is going to be all that rewarding. If characters could make a lot of money selling things, then no one would ever be adventuring. Screw digging around a dungeon! I'm going to become a merchant! So, I don't think the option to be a merchant should be a lucrative one, because it would throw the entire economy system of your work out of whack, and would make things illogical.

But let's see...Now, since the success of the business would of course be dependant upon the ranks of skill in a given profession, ie: Profession: Cobbler; then I would expect players to concentrate on those skills alone, using Diplomacy should allow you to gain a +2 modifier to help with the skill check, and with appraise, unless your in a high-quality market +1 is good enough.

I would say that creating a normal, item to be sold would be the normal DC of 15. Of course, creating a masterwork item makes the DC 20.

So, the first step would be to figure out what kind of market the business falls under and figure out a profit of margin. I think keeping it as a percentage is easier in the long run.

I would first figure out what percentage of profit that a character would want, or at least what the profit margin would be for the rest of the world, the NPCs. I don't know what is 'realistic', but let's say that 5% is generally what most merchants would made. Unless we are talking about high-quality, or expensive markets. So, let's say:
05% -- Average Profit Margin for most markets
10% -- High-Quality, Expensive Item Markets
15% -- Magical Market
20% -- Black Market

If you want to make a profit margin higher than that, I think it should increase the difficulty by 1 for every percentage you want to increase by. Selling boots? Normal boots would bring you a 5%. You want 10%? The difficulty just now increased by +5. Selling high-quality boots? Start at 10%.

Now, I don't know how I can get around, or at least avoid having to factor in the base cost, and the time to produce one item. I guess we would have to figure out how much it would cost one item for market, and how much time it would take. Then we can figure out what the cost would be and how many items it would take for an half a day, 2 weeks, or 10 months. Having to know what your base costs are important. Then your profit can be based upon how much the costs were for a given amount of time. -- It cost 100gp to make boots for the last month?

Now, how would creating masterwork items increase the profit margin? I guess the standard way. It would increase the cost of the item by 50%? I don't know. I seem to remember that creating a masterwork item would increase the cost of creation by 50% I don't have anything with me that I can check the books.

Then, of course, I would say factors will adjust the difficulty. Increase the quality is one way. But I would also say "Is the market in demand of the item?" If there is a demand, decrease the DC. Less than regular demand? Or the market has a lot of competition? Increase the DC.

Some of those skill modifiers I like, some I don't...like: What the heck is a secondary skill?

The market has a lot of other merchants and choices for buyer? Competition. +2 DC
Business has a monopoly on the market? -2 DC
High demand in the market? -2 DC
Business has a signature item/service? -1 DC
Business is in a regular location? -2 DC
Business is not in a regular location? +2 DC
Business is not run at a regular time? +2 DC

I don't think that profit should be determined per sale. I think it should be considered upon how much time and effort is put into the given profession. If you put in 8 hours a day into the profession, then I say that the player should gain 100% of the profit. 4 hours a day? 50% of the profit is available to the character, however the +4 is added to the DC of the situation.

 

[Cabral]

Greetings...

Well, first of all I don't think that running a business in a medieval fantasy paradigm setting is going to be all that rewarding. If characters could make a lot of money selling things, then no one would ever be adventuring. Screw digging around a dungeon! I'm going to become a merchant! So, I don't think the option to be a merchant should be a lucrative one, because it would throw the entire economy system of your work out of whack, and would make things illogical.

The mechanic is meant to be on the side. She opperates out of a horse drawn carriage. For other characters there is also the option of running the business from long distance with employees/managers. It's not meant to be competing with adventuring but rather just be worthwhile for the extra hour or so per game session it takes up.

Now, I don't know how I can get around, or at least avoid having to factor in the base cost, and the time to produce one item. I guess we would have to figure out how much it would cost one item for market, and how much time it would take. Then we can figure out what the cost would be and how many items it would take for an half a day, 2 weeks, or 10 months. Having to know what your base costs are important. Then your profit can be based upon how much the costs were for a given amount of time. -- It cost 100gp to make boots for the last month?

The cost to create a mundane item is one-third the market price.

Some of those skill modifiers I like, some I don't...like: What the heck is a secondary skill?

In the case of a shop, Appraise and Diplomacy

The market has a lot of other merchants and choices for buyer? Competition. +2 DC
Business has a monopoly on the market? -2 DC
High demand in the market? -2 DC
Business has a signature item/service? -1 DC
Business is in a regular location? -2 DC
Business is not in a regular location? +2 DC
Business is not run at a regular time? +2 DC

I don't think that profit should be determined per sale. I think it should be considered upon how much time and effort is put into the given profession. If you put in 8 hours a day into the profession, then I say that the player should gain 100% of the profit. 4 hours a day? 50% of the profit is available to the character, however the +4 is added to the DC of the situation.

The rules in the DMG give a penalty for spending less than 8 hours a week on business growth and a bonus for spending more than 40 hours a week. Competition, if I recall is -1d6 to the roll. Opperating out of a carriage (not a regular location) is -2 DC.

 

[Imagicka]

WIWIIWMG (Well, I would, if it were my game...)

Greetings...

For the one character who is selling stuff on the side of the road, well...let's consider her negatives.
Pettling her wears whereever she goes. No regular customer base. No stable market. I would give the person some serious negatives.

As for the rest who just own the business and let managers run it for them. Well, can the players afford to have managers run things for them? Because if the managers and workers aren't well paid... well, theft and embellizement, not to mention bad managers can really ruin a business.

Imagine all the roleplaying fun your players can have when they found out that the business is being run into the ground. The manager skipped town, and stole what profits were made. Not to mention the creative bookkeeping the manager did placing all the blame squarely on the shoulders of the owners.

So, who do you think would make more money? The travelling merchant? Or owner of a struggling business?

Ahh, 1/3rd the market price. Okay. Well, then, without working costs, 66% is the market profit for each unit sold.

I think it would be easier to calculate how many units a character can make in a given day, figure out what the costs are to attempt to make those units. Then do some skill rolls, and figure out how many were successful, and how many failed. Now, this can be a little bit of work, especially if you have someone making oh, say 50 units. But also, this could be fun because of the number of random masterwork objects that come from these rolls.

Of course, you could probably come up with a table of successes. Figure out the adjusted difficulty for the character to create her wares, and then the difficulty at selling them. Of course, selling could become a factor of roleplaying, or roleplaying sales could be a type of bonus that allows the character to up her sales numbers.

There is something in the DMG? Is this in the new book? Or the regular DMG? If so, what page? Well, if there are some good ideas there in the book, all the better.

Competition: -1d6? Having a ranging difficulty modifier is okay, I guess. But if this was something I was doing, I'd be trying to nail down the factors in the game. "So, what's so special about this competition that I'm working with a -6?" -- "So, if I paint my wagon, can that decrease the difficulty?"

 

[Tonguez]

I use a harvest mechanic in my homebrew rules (originally created for villages but extended to guilds and businesses anyway)

basically it looks at Yeilds/Labour/Time

So say I invest 100 gp (which the item creation guidelines suggest would be 1/3 of the market value (ie 300gp yeild from which I then subtract the 100 to determine my Profit)

Now I am one merchant working for a month (30 days) to obtain 300gp

Yeilds/Labour/Time => 300/1/30 = DC 10 vs Proffesion/Craft skill check

Every point above or below the DC adjust profit by 5% (eg if I roll 23 (DC+13) I make 300gp+65% = 495gp. However if I roll 4 (DC -6) I make 300 - 30% =210gp)

Use other modifiers to DC as appropriate

 

[jgbrowning]

So how do I fix it so it's rewarding? I want it to be lucrative enough to risk the 8k to start as well be worth any time (RL time) and skill ranks devoted to the business. Even for a "Low risk" (= low loss, low profit). In addition I want to take into account what is being sold.

Wow. I hadn't read that section closely, but I just did. It's terrible.

Any thoughts?

Another thing to add into the revision of A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe.

joe b.