Running Away

[MadLordOfMilk]

One thing almost never happens in one of my groups, but happened left and right in a group I ran a one-shot with: hauling ass.

Sometimes, it's just more expedient to get out of the bad situation; after all, if the only thing at stake in this battle is dying, and running away seems very possible, it might be worth the risk taken.

On one hand, I don't want to make it an automatic success every time. On the other hand, it has to be reasonably possible in many situations. I was thinking of perhaps "replacing" the combat encounter with a skill challenge, where success means getting away, while failure means having to fight anyway at a disadvantage.

What would you do in this sort of situation?

 

[Destil]

On one hand, I don't want to make it an automatic success every time. On the other hand, it has to be reasonably possible in many situations. I was thinking of perhaps "replacing" the combat encounter with a skill challenge, where success means getting away, while failure means having to fight anyway at a disadvantage.

I did exactly this a few months ago when I had a party of 4th level PCs wandering through the Mournland encounter a 14th level solo beholder:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/265869-rate-your-encounters-2.html#post4983252

 

[Turtlejay]

. . .and again last night, we *should* have run, but we kept thinking the Harpy would stay dead. Silly adventurers!

A fight with a harpy and three animated statues seemed straightforward, until the harpy got up again after she died. And the stone minotaur. And the harpy again. And again. After the second time rising from the dead, we really should have hauled our asses out. In the end, our NPC wizard had to use an artifact to get us out of there.

A lot of the time, it is not in the PC's nature. Some of the time, running into the unknown is scarier than facing the known. You never know what insane creature in the mournland will drop in on you as you flee one threat. You might end up a meal for another.

Jay

 

[Ryujin]

A skill challenge sounds like a very viable way of handling a rout if the players haven't made allowances for escape, nor have items that are specifically geared to the sort of thing. If they can simply get out of sight then an item like an Exodus Knife would make for a handy escape, as long as they take precautions to not make the pocket's location obvious.

In a recent foray against undead I took the time to create a Ward Undead zone in a hallway to both block pursuit and give us a refuge against attack. It wasn't needed, but it was there in case it was.

"Chance favours the prepared mind."

 

[Infiniti2000]

I would amend it (somehow and I don't know how) to fighting at a disadvantage next time. Understand that if the PCs are fleeing, they don't expect to win. Forcing them to fight and on top of that at some artificial disadvantage is simply a kick in the nuts.

Anyway, if it almost never happens, then how is "every time" relevant? Why not let it happen every time if that's almost never? You want to reduce the impact of almost never to "no, really, almost almost never?"

 

[MadLordOfMilk]

I would amend it (somehow and I don't know how) to fighting at a disadvantage next time. Understand that if the PCs are fleeing, they don't expect to win. Forcing them to fight and on top of that at some artificial disadvantage is simply a kick in the nuts.

That's a pretty good point. I'll probably just have them get beat up on the run so that they have to deal with potentially losing resources (surges, whatever) without gaining the XP reward they would've gotten. Basically, make it viable, but at a slight risk.

Anyway, if it almost never happens, then how is "every time" relevant? Why not let it happen every time if that's almost never? You want to reduce the impact of almost never to "no, really, almost almost never?"

That is a very good point But to clarify, ne of my groups (who I imagine is typical) almost never runs. Another group I play with constantly stays out of trouble - they're also used to much more lethal older editions, so they actually think of it rather than assuming they can kick everything in the face and be done with it.

While a good number of situations can more or less allow a couple actions in combat then a quick hand-wave "ok, you got away," it doesn't always fit. Basically, while it's a viable tactic, it shouldn't be a freebie every time, IMO. Plus, I don't mind occasionally hand-waving things, but I'd prefer a better system.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Ideas will unfortunately totally depend on the situation, but maybe as the heroes try to leave, instead of killing them or simply letting them get away, have the BBEG say something like, "Capture one of them for questioning, but let the others go." Or, "Kill one as an example." Or maybe they simply take pot shots as the heroes leave, but not really try to stop them.

To be honest, my group suffers from the same lack of running away. One thing I want to ask you is whether the group allows their enemies to run away or, if like mine, they always hunt down every one? If the latter, then I would simply do the same. Basically, it's a childish "see how they like it." Of course, the better approach is to simply discuss it with the players first. Ask them if everyone could be a little more magnanimous about the whole affair. I think this is even discussed in a little more detail in one of the DMGs. It's along the lines of, if the heroes are always cutthroat then their reputation will get around and others will not feel disposed to letting them go.

Another idea for a disadvantage, btw, should they flee, is a possible loss in a quest reward (if you have them) or maybe a reduction. Perhaps, also a similar reduction in some parcel or other (though I wouldn't affect magic items), or maybe some minor penalty in the next fight, like a -2 on the first attack or maybe save ends signifying they've overcome their fear / reticence.

As you can tell, I'm very interested in this topic and would also appreciate more responses from others. It's also very close to a general topic. Can someone with search capabilities see if this was covered in a general topic without 4E specific rules?

 

[Ryujin]

I would imagine it would depend upon the "victory conditions" of either group. If the opposition is tasked with defending an area and are highly disciplined, then chasing after the PCs would tend to be a foolish move. If they're simple same place/same time in an area, then they might just do it.

The party tends to be in a different situation. In a dungeon scenario what they don't kill now they'll not only have to kill later, but they'll also have to face alert enemies. This doesn't tend to be the case when they just meet something on the road.

If a party that I was DMing chose to try and chase down a fleeing attacker, in the latter scenario, then I would have no trouble at all in occasionally punishing them for it by having them run straight into an enemy camp while chasing the runner.

 

[Saeviomagy]

A lot of the time, players have been conditioned against fleeing because it's almost always a stupid thing to do.

This is because the MM is chock-full of foes that outrun the PCs. Basically, unless you are fighting something that is specifically slow, it will be able to outrun your slowest party member and keep up with all the rest. And in 4th, also expect it to have a superior basic attack to use with its charges.

So, if you run, you
1) can't get away
2) don't appreciably affect the foe's ability to hurt you

This has been a problem for several editions.

 

[ValhallaGH]

So, if you run, you
1) can't get away
2) don't appreciably affect the foe's ability to hurt you

This has been a problem for several editions.

And that's because D&D wants you to stand and fight or be cut down like the cowardly cur your are.*

The tone that D&D is designed for isn't the tone in which heroes regularly, or even occasionally, flee. It's one where they slug it out to the bitter end, and heroes generally triumph. As an example, lets look at one of the classic "Run AWAY!" scenarios: low level party sees a big dragon.
1) Party decides to sneak away, praying the dragon didn't notice them.
2) Dragon, with her very high level detection skills, notices the sneaking party of adventurers. While they may not pose a threat to her, they are probably a threat to her grand-kids and other relatives. Bonus, they may have some neat loot.
3) Dragon pursues low-level party, is much faster, and either kills them or traps them in a wasteland the way Smaug trapped Thorin's party.

There are lots of systems that strive for greater realism; and in those systems, part of realism is that sometimes you need to run away and do so with great enthusiasm. D&D only lets you run away on rare occasions, and it can be really difficult, as a player, to recognize those without the DM explicitly mentioning it. The issue is both endemic to the system and a side effect of player conditioning.
In my experience and observation, the only successful flights have been against very slow foes (zombies) or when the Wizard has an appropriate "Out of the Frying Pan!" spell (teleport, magic circles, etc.).


*I started my D&D career with 3.0; if prior editions did it differently then I am unaware of that. Regardless, my statements are accurate regarding 3.x and 4th.