D&D 4E Running player commentary on PCat's 4E Campaign - Heroic tier (finished)

Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
That's what it's there for.

Tonight's game had a truly remarkable combat. While Strontium faced down a swarm of crawling claws all by himself (technically, the shredded corpse of Clavius the sage, dismembered and reanimated by Alene), the rest of the group fought a group of nobles who were angry that they'd stolen their carriage in the previous game. It was amazing; with half the 4th lvl group low on hit points and completely out of healing surges, they used sneaky tactics to eke out a victory against three 6th lvl skirmishers (a ranger-type and two fighter-types) and a 7th lvl half-elven controller. The fight involved party members dropping and getting healed no fewer than three times, a battle atop a ruined carriage being dragged across cobblestones by maddened horses, good use of stunts, and a terrifying use of druidic shapeshifting.
 

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Rechan

Adventurer
You have a druid in the game? :) Or was that one of the villains?

How do the PCs heal when they're out of surges?

How did the PCs use sneakiness to do it?

Sagiro, hurry up and post! :D
 

Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
Toiva (doppelganger paladin) took the druid multiclass feat. Now she can turn into any person or animal -- which comes in handy when you're trying to grab a sniveling noble on the back of a stampeding horse...

The group has Bracken, a Quith (our name for the wilden) shaman. She used her at-wills to repeatedly give people tiny bursts of 4 hp at a time every time her spirit companion got an opportunity attack.. which was lots. One of the remarkable things about this fight was how much it moved around.

Really, I rated to kick the party's ass. I'm impressed I didn't.
 

Sagiro

Rodent of Uncertain Parentage
Hoo boy.

Looks like Piratecat has already covered the basics. Here are some observations and additional detail regarding the main fight:

For this fight, we had four PC's: 2 Brawny Rogues (Logan and Cobalt), a Protecting Paladin (Toiva), and a Protector Shaman (Bramble). Of the four of us, only Bramble had any healing surges remaining. And while three of us were near full health going in, Logan started the fight with EIGHT hit points. All of us had used up our dailies in the previous two fights of the day.

As Piratecat has said, we were up against 3 6th-level skirmishers and a 7th-level controller. For a four-person party of 4th-level PC's, that's about a level+2.5 encounter, which falls into the “hard fight” range even before taking into account our heavily-depleted state. Did I mention that the defender and both strikers had NO healing surges left for this combat?

Piratecat has given me the stat-sheets for the baddies to help me write up this tactical report. I note that their defenses are slightly better than ours overall, and their to-hit bonuses are also comparable, again maybe a little better. Their hit point totals were about 50% higher, as expected.

Holy cow, was our rolling atrocious. Conversely, it seemed like Piratecat couldn't miss. I realize that human psychology made it seem worse than it actually was, but I don't think I'm off by much to say that we hit with about 40% of our rolls, and Piratecat hit with about 75% of his rolls.

And yet, for all that, we won the battle. It's hard to explain. At about the 2/3 point in the battle, I turned to Piratecat and said: “I don't understand why we didn't lose this fight about an hour ago.” But looking back, there were two main contributing factors:

1)Toiva pulled a great stunt early in the battle, bull-rushing the controller and bodily carrying him away from the fight. Although the foe weaseled out, it resulted in Toiva chasing him around the battlefield, effectively keeping him from influencing the remaining 3-on-3 fight the rest of us were having.

2)Bramble, the Shaman, was a huge, huge, huge difference-maker. Played beautifully by my beautiful wife (Kodiak on the boards here), Bramble managed to keep the surge-less rogues going for most of the battle through deft use of her powers and clever placement of her Spirit Companion. Some examples:

At one point, when BOTH of the rogues had been knocked unconscious, Bramble managed to get us both back on our feet in a single round. She used Thunderwave (from her Arcane Initiate feat) to knock one of the enemies past her Spirit Companion, triggering* its Spirit's Shield power, which gave Cobalt 4 hit points, restoring him to consciousness. Then she used Healing Spirit as a minor action, targeting herself for the surge (since only she had surges left), and giving Logan (who was next to the Spirit) the extra die of healing, also restoring him to consciousness.

Over and over again, she'd move her Spirit to a spot adjacent to one of the bodyguards. The nobleman, being hounded by Toiva, was yelling at him to assist. So the bodyguard would move, triggering Spirit's Shield. Up would pop one of the unconscious rogues, with 4 hit points. She did this several times in a row; each time the bodyguard would smack down one rogue back to unconsciousness, and then Bramble would restore one of us to single-digits again. It was like playing whack-a-rogue; the two just wouldn't stay down! And though we kept getting knocked out again, we were chipping away at the bodyguards' healths all the while.

A single use of the level-1 at will “Haunting Spirits” allowed Logan to do about 40 hit points of damage to the enemy, as it afforded him two sneak-attacks: one on an opportunity attack, and another on his actual turn.


* - yeah, against the rules, as I noted while writing this up. Ah well.


As for Toiva's amazing chase: there was a wrecked carriage near to where the fight was going on, with horses still attached. Toiva bull-rushed the noble controller (Nils Riverlimb) into the wreckage of the cart, simultaneously shape-shifting into a leopard to spook the horses into bolting. That's what caused the last bodyguard to give chase, thus giving the Shaman so many uses of Spirit's Shield. It was pretty frikkin' sweet.

The fight ended with Cobalt unconscious, Logan settled at his original 8 hit points, and Toiva and Bramble still unbloodied. (I think... Toiva may have been bloodied by the end.) We had knocked out the controller and two of his three bodyguards; the third surrendered when his boss was taken out.

Neither side was fighting to kill, though Toiva was this close to dealing a fatal blow when she finished off Nils Riverlimb. Boy, was she pissed – particularly because Nils had used a Domination power on her to make her kneel and surrender her main weapon right before Bramble pummeled him with a critical hit on her Spring Renewal Strike.

AND... while that was going in, Strontium was having her own fight against a swarm of body parts, from the dismembered and piecemeal-animated librarian she had gone to visit. Yuck! Her rolls were predictably terrible, and the swarm had her immobilized and down to six hit points while the ghost-librarian controlling them stood nearby, watching. She escaped through sheer guile, convincing the ghost to call off the swarm by threatening to burn his precious books, with an intimidate check aided by a Prestidigitation to produce a small flame. The ghost called off his swarm of parts, and Strontium turned and fled the library.

Whew.
 

Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
I'll note that Nils Riverlimb the controller (a "half-elf con man," for those of you following at home with DDI) could do very little damage. The Grey Guard were seldom close enough to inspire them to basic attack one another (I think it happened twice) and he had some trouble hitting Toiva's will defense. At the last minute, Bramble critted (21 points of damage! Enough to knock Nils down to 1 hp) and her totem caused him to be restrained as a thorn tree erupted from the cobblestones beneath him. Considering that he'd just dominated Toiva and forced her to kneel before him, he's awfully lucky to be alive and unconscious.

The other reason the group is still alive is that they focused fire and dropped one of the bodyguards within two rounds. Lucky, that.

Incidentally, Nils is related to Sir Anders Riverlimb, the noble in Cobalt's backstory who Cobalt accidentally killed in a bar fight. He was a diplomat from Croghan, the country to the east.
 

Aravis

First Post
Toiva (doppelganger paladin) took the druid multiclass feat. Now she can turn into any person or animal -- which comes in handy when you're trying to grab a sniveling noble on the back of a stampeding horse...

I should note that in terms of flavor text, we are playing this as a gift from Toiva's god (Aika, the Goddess of Change), rather than Toiva training to be a Druid.

-Aravis
 

Aravis

First Post
1)Toiva pulled a great stunt early in the battle, bull-rushing the controller and bodily carrying him away from the fight. Although the foe weaseled out, it resulted in Toiva chasing him around the battlefield, effectively keeping him from influencing the remaining 3-on-3 fight the rest of us were having.

Toiva's original plan was to dump him in the river and then say to his bodygaurds, "Hey, there goes your Lord and Master towards the waterfall. Go get him." At this point our characters thought there was a good chance that Strontium was in serious trouble and needed rescuing. (Who knew it was us who could really use that rescuing.)

The rules don't really allow for what I needed to do, but PC was happy to just roll with it.

In the end, through some bad rolls on my part and some good rolls on Nils' part, I just had to keep him running. Worked out nearly as well.

Toiva has a bit of a history in her backstory of dealing with nobles who think of everyone else as things to be controlled and so was very unhappy with Nils. She also was a slave at one point (something she does not talk about, but that Doc Caldwell suspects) and so the domination was almost too much for her to bear. She is currently an unhappy camper who is conflicted over her decision not to kill him.

-Aravis
 

Old One

First Post
Kevin -

I really appreciate your detailed skill challenge write-ups and am curious about the "just handing them out" part. Now I know your group is a great group of role-players who are highly invested in the game, but how do you think this approach would work at a Con or other - more limited - engagement?

Also, how long do you give them to plot and plan before tossing them into the action?

Finally, are you using any visuals or tokens to track progress?

Thanks in advance!

~ OO

PS - Any further ideas you can share on running successful skill challenges is most welcome.
 

Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
...how do you think this approach would work at a Con or other - more limited - engagement?

Also, how long do you give them to plot and plan before tossing them into the action?

Finally, are you using any visuals or tokens to track progress?
Glad you found them, Phil! It's a big thread to sort through.

I think this approach would be extremely successful for a con or one-shot; in fact, I'll go out on a limb and say that it would be more successful than an approach that was integrated seamlessly into the storyline with no hint to the players of behind-the-scenes game mechanics.

I'm having a little trouble elucidating why that is, but I'm going to give it a shot. It's for the same reason that the player tracks their hit points instead of the DM.

Imagine if your DM tracked your HP and didn't really give you much feedback on how close to life or death your character was. You'd have to make crucial combat decisions - do I charge in? do I withdraw and shoot missiles? do I flee? - with insufficient information to make an informed choice. More importantly, if you don't realize you're down to three hp as the monster is charging you, you lose all of the nervous anticipation and drama that you'd otherwise feel with your hero's life on the line.

I submit that a skill challenge is the same way. If you aren't informed of the odds, your successes, and your failures, than there's absolutely no drama or excitement. You win or lose without ever being nervous or confident of your status, and that's simply less fun because you're not emotionally engaged. If you have the opportunity to strategically select your skills and actions, I'm finding these suckers to be as exciting and rewarding as a good combat. If you don't, I'm finding them to be frustrating black boxes I have to guess at, and that sucks.

I throw the players into the action immediately, with no more time to plan that I would allow for combat. Less boring that way. You just need to make sure that every character has at least one decent choice, even if that's "aid another in some cinematic way."

Physical tracking tokens are essential. I use small red glass beads (the kind used for M:tG hit points) for failures, and larger green glass beads (originally aquarium rocks from a pet store) for successes. The tangible symbols of success and failure help keep people focused, since they can just glance at the table to see how they're doing.
 
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Old One

First Post
Kevin -

Thanks for the quick response and I really like the reasoning around the process. I am really just getting into understanding the hows and whys of skill challenges and found your examples (and the players comments) very, very helpful...

Also, check the RBDM thread and let me know if those comments help you out at all...

~ OO
 

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