The comparison isnt really with second wind but instead to Inspiring Word and Healing Word.
They give Healing Surge Value plus a number of d6 depending on level plus Wis mod for Clerics.
D&D 4E Running player commentary on PCat's 4E Campaign - Heroic tier (finished)
They give Healing Surge Value plus a number of d6 depending on level plus Wis mod for Clerics.
blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
... as a minor action instead of a standard. That alone is a huge difference. The fact that it's also at range is significant as well.
Joshua Randall
Legend
The weird thing about healing potions, in all editions, is that they are more effective the fewer hit points you have.
In 4e, a wizard with 10 Con will have 20 hp; while a fighter with 10 Con will have 25 hp. So the heroic tier healing potion that heals 10 hp can heal 50% of the wizard's hp but only 40% of the fighter's hp.
Healing surges, by contrast, are always equal to 1/4 your hp, so they scale with level, and they also scale with hit points. Does that make any sense? In the same wizard and fighter example, the wizard's healing surge will heal 5 hp, or 25% of his max, while the fighter's healing surge will heal 6 hp, or (almost) 25% of his max.
(Yes, the math is a bit off because of rounding. You get the point.)
If we look at higher level versions of the wizard and fighter, say that eventually the wizard has 30 hp and the fighter has 60 hp. The 10-point potion heals 33% of the wizard's hp but only 16.6% of the fighter's hp. It's still a good deal for the wizard -- better than a surge -- but it's not a very good deal for the fighter. (Obviously, healing is never useless, but its value relative to the opportunity cost of using it (i.e., the action(s) it takes to use it) goes down.)
Now, as Plane Sailing pointed out, there are paragon and epic tier versions of healing potions too, so you don't end up with something riduculous like the 150 hp fighter still chugging 10 hp healing potions (when his surge value is 37!).
I wonder if the game would still be balanced if healing potions said:
When you use this item, heal hit points as if you had spent a healing surge.
Would that make them too good? they would basically be extra surges per day. They would always heal 25% of your max hp, but they would never cost you an actual surge.
That way if a fighter picks up a potion and drinks it, it is exactly as effective (relative to his max hp) as if a wizard picks up a potion and drinks it. This gets around some weird situations like, "No, Tordek, don't drink that potion -- give it to Mialee; she'll get more use out of it." Shouldn't the magic of the potion work just as well for either character?
I know, I know; hp are just an abstraction, and it's just a game. But I wonder if the "healing potion = free extra healing surge" was tried and found lacking in some way.
In 4e, a wizard with 10 Con will have 20 hp; while a fighter with 10 Con will have 25 hp. So the heroic tier healing potion that heals 10 hp can heal 50% of the wizard's hp but only 40% of the fighter's hp.
Healing surges, by contrast, are always equal to 1/4 your hp, so they scale with level, and they also scale with hit points. Does that make any sense? In the same wizard and fighter example, the wizard's healing surge will heal 5 hp, or 25% of his max, while the fighter's healing surge will heal 6 hp, or (almost) 25% of his max.
(Yes, the math is a bit off because of rounding. You get the point.)
If we look at higher level versions of the wizard and fighter, say that eventually the wizard has 30 hp and the fighter has 60 hp. The 10-point potion heals 33% of the wizard's hp but only 16.6% of the fighter's hp. It's still a good deal for the wizard -- better than a surge -- but it's not a very good deal for the fighter. (Obviously, healing is never useless, but its value relative to the opportunity cost of using it (i.e., the action(s) it takes to use it) goes down.)
Now, as Plane Sailing pointed out, there are paragon and epic tier versions of healing potions too, so you don't end up with something riduculous like the 150 hp fighter still chugging 10 hp healing potions (when his surge value is 37!).
I wonder if the game would still be balanced if healing potions said:
When you use this item, heal hit points as if you had spent a healing surge.
Would that make them too good? they would basically be extra surges per day. They would always heal 25% of your max hp, but they would never cost you an actual surge.
That way if a fighter picks up a potion and drinks it, it is exactly as effective (relative to his max hp) as if a wizard picks up a potion and drinks it. This gets around some weird situations like, "No, Tordek, don't drink that potion -- give it to Mialee; she'll get more use out of it." Shouldn't the magic of the potion work just as well for either character?
I know, I know; hp are just an abstraction, and it's just a game. But I wonder if the "healing potion = free extra healing surge" was tried and found lacking in some way.
The reason why 4e potions do not do that is because they have a monetary value and can be bought. A potion such as you propose is equally useful at all levels, so how do you price that when characters have tons of coin at higher levels? With the fixed-hp potions, PCs need to buy bigger & more expensive versions to keep up with the times.
Vayden
First Post
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how the leader-less party works out. I still can't believe you guys run 10 year + campaigns. Our groups are way too ADD for that - myself and the other GMs burn out and need breaks, or the story breaks down, or people want to try out different characters. I think the longest campaign I've ever been involved with was just a hair under 2 years, and I played 3 different characters during that campaign.
... Oh, and yeah, Cobalt should totally be nicknamed "Bait".
And Strontium would, presumably, be "anchor"...
Cheers, Al'Kelhar
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
It would be a disaster!
One of the main points of healing potions costing a surge but giving you less than a surge back (once you've got past the early levels) is to prevent them being fantastically cost effective replacements for leaders. People would be wandering around with bags of healing potions instead of wands of CLW.
If you allowed healing potions to heal without using up healing surges, then it would inflate the party ability to continue acting (and even paragon level parties would be able to afford hundreds of the things in their bag of holding).
Nobody would ever die! (</ hyperbole >)
Cheers
Joshua Randall
Legend
It's always best not to think things through before you post them. That way, you look like you really have a firm grasp on the rules, and others will respect your opinion in the future.
*puts bag on head*
*puts bag on head*
Gwaihir
Explorer
About 3 years is the longest I've ever played in or run, but Pcats group has several advantages over mine --Great Players & Great DMs being the most notable.
Though my group has chosen to not up-rev to 4e, I'm watching this thread with great interest, not least because Piratecat always has tons of stuff worth shamelessly stealing both plotwise and mechanics/style wise. Since I happen to be starting a campaign about now, I'm sure there will be several useful bits.
Blackjack
First Post
Heh! I think it helps that
* Piratecat is really good at creating long story arcs, so that we continue to stay engaged over long periods of time. If we'd stopped his Defenders campaign after a few years, there would have been too many unresolved storylines!
* the players are folks with a dramatic bent who really enjoy getting into & developing their characters. I played Malachite in the Defenders, and really dug watching him evolve from his original concept. If I'd stopped playing him after 2 years, he wouldn't have changed that much! That's why I've written my new PC with a bunch of "blanks", so that I can fill him in over time.
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