Sandbox-style: What's your opinion?

[Irda Ranger]

I think the sandbox works better for me because, really, I found fleshing out tons of detail beforehand to be rather tedious. Especially in terms of designing dungeons and encounters. Is the "sandbox" style good for getting around that? Or will I always have to put up with the tedium?

A different kind of tedium, I guess. But once you've made (or "borrowed") a thieve's guild generator you'll never need another one, so it's a once-off kind of tedium.

I'm thinking I'm just going to draw up some general maps and think up several overarching ongoings in the area (i.e. war is brewing between two kingdoms, a plague has hit a group of villages, a king has gone missing) with general backgrounds and explanations for these events, and then just let my players respond to and get involved with whatever sounds good. Is that doing it right? Or should I just have a minor event or two and just see where it goes?

Sounds fine. I would tell the PCs what your "overarching ongoings in the area" are, and have them decide what sounds interesting, before they make PCs though. Nothing sucks quite like bringing a low-Chr Ranger to a campaign where all the other PCs say "Oh hey, let's do that urban & political intrigue hook."

I've been making little NPC cards on notecards. I figured this way I could access them easily and have everything right in front of me? Is that a good idea? Are there other helpful little things I could do?

Lists of culturally appropriate names and personality quirks are better. There's really no way to know ahead of time if the PCs are going to say "Let's find an alchemist." Or, just keep your notecards with blanks for "profession" and "location" to be filled in as needed during play.

One last thing, how do you make your own random encounter tables? Should I just list monsters they're likely to run into based on their general level and what's in the area? Like, should I make random encounter groups or should I just have tables of random monsters?

Hold up. You're assuming encounters should be "based on their general level", but there are two schools of thought on whether you should do that. I'll call them the "Adventurer Beware" ("AB" for short) and "Oblivion" ("Ob" for short) schools.

Under the AB school you make your setting and encounters are whatever is appropriate for the world your PCs live in. If Fire Giants live there, then Fire Giants live there; even if the PCs are first level. It's understood that PCs (even if 1st level) will do recon, use their heads and know to stay out of the deep end of the pool until they can swim there. This should be fine as long as everyone at your table is well informed of this design element and above the age of 12.

In the Ob school of sandbox design, everything is scaled to the level of the PCs. I find this boring and predictable, but YMMV.

What I generally do is have lists of random individual monsters appropriate for the areas (e.g., Ogre foragers). I then fill in the gaps in the monster lineup to make a good encounter. My process might be "Okay, I rolled some (Brute) Ogre foragers. Let's throw in a (Skirmisher) Worg hunting-hound and one (Artillery) Orog Huntsman/Leader to round this out." I find that's the best way to get a good mix of "random" and "sensical", since a purely random encounter might combine Ogre foragers, a Dire Flumph and a mindflayer. Too many encounters like that and things just get silly.

 

[Angrydad]

A different kind of tedium, I guess. But once you've made (or "borrowed") a thieve's guild generator you'll never need another one, so it's a once-off kind of tedium.


Sounds fine. I would tell the PCs what your "overarching ongoings in the area" are, and have them decide what sounds interesting, before they make PCs though. Nothing sucks quite like bringing a low-Chr Ranger to a campaign where all the other PCs say "Oh hey, let's do that urban & political intrigue hook."


Lists of culturally appropriate names and personality quirks are better. There's really no way to know ahead of time if the PCs are going to say "Let's find an alchemist." Or, just keep your notecards with blanks for "profession" and "location" to be filled in as needed during play.



Hold up. You're assuming encounters should be "based on their general level", but there are two schools of thought on whether you should do that. I'll call them the "Adventurer Beware" ("AB" for short) and "Oblivion" ("Ob" for short) schools.

Under the AB school you make your setting and encounters are whatever is appropriate for the world your PCs live in. If Fire Giants live there, then Fire Giants live there; even if the PCs are first level. It's understood that PCs (even if 1st level) will do recon, use their heads and know to stay out of the deep end of the pool until they can swim there. This should be fine as long as everyone at your table is well informed of this design element and above the age of 12.

In the Ob school of sandbox design, everything is scaled to the level of the PCs. I find this boring and predictable, but YMMV.

What I generally do is have lists of random individual monsters appropriate for the areas (e.g., Ogre foragers). I then fill in the gaps in the monster lineup to make a good encounter. My process might be "Okay, I rolled some (Brute) Ogre foragers. Let's throw in a (Skirmisher) Worg hunting-hound and one (Artillery) Orog Huntsman/Leader to round this out." I find that's the best way to get a good mix of "random" and "sensical", since a purely random encounter might combine Ogre foragers, a Dire Flumph and a mindflayer. Too many encounters like that and things just get silly.

I personally prefer to design my worlds in the Adventurer Beware school of thought. While I love Oblivion, the fact that everywhere you go is theoretically scaled to your level kind of takes away from the suspense of the whole adventure. It may be a tough encounter for my level, but it's still something I can handle with a little thought. If my players are dumb enought to charge into an area infested with giants when they're only 4th level or so, they deserve to get smooshed into paste and made into bread. Random encounters follow this school in my games as well. Some random monsters are too tough for the party to handle and should be "the better part of valor"-ed.

 

[Obryn]

Hold up. You're assuming encounters should be "based on their general level", but there are two schools of thought on whether you should do that. I'll call them the "Adventurer Beware" ("AB" for short) and "Oblivion" ("Ob" for short) schools.

You know, I have a general preference for non-scaled encounters when I'm doing Sandbox, and that's exactly how I ran it.

Where I ran into problems wasn't encounters above the PCs' level; I always think running is a good option.

The problem was encounters way below the PCs' level. These were plain old boring, and the rewards weren't satisfying, either. When combat is as involved as 3e/4e generally are, this amounted to time my players and I felt was kind of wasted.

I placed low-level modules all around the area for the adventurers' to locate and/or hear about through rumors, along with high-level modules. All the while though I was thinking, "How fun will it be going through a 1st-level module for a few hundred odd GP and a +1 item or two?"

-O

 

[Irda Ranger]

I placed low-level modules all around the area for the adventurers' to locate and/or hear about through rumors, along with high-level modules. All the while though I was thinking, "How fun will it be going through a 1st-level module for a few hundred odd GP and a +1 item or two?"

You mean if the PCs are higher than 8th level or so? The first one's pretty fun (like playing Doom in God Mode), but after that, not so much. That's why God invented "Help Wanted" signs. Place a post on the central message post in town square to the effect of "Local cave-clearing missions for the adventurous and brave. Treasure and glory await. Local Heroes with better things to do will provide their best dungeon-clearing tips, some healing potions, 10 days rations and one donkey with supplies for the brave at heart. Will take only 10% commission on treasure recovered."

Then the PCs can learn the pleasure of delegation, not to mention have a little fun drafting ads that they used to respond to when they were 1st level.

 

[Reynard]

One last thing, how do you make your own random encounter tables? Should I just list monsters they're likely to run into based on their general level and what's in the area? Like, should I make random encounter groups or should I just have tables of random monsters?

My next blog entry tackles this subject.

 

[Shades of Green]

Where I ran into problems wasn't encounters above the PCs' level; I always think running is a good option.

The problem was encounters way below the PCs' level. These were plain old boring, and the rewards weren't satisfying, either. When combat is as involved as 3e/4e generally are, this amounted to time my players and I felt was kind of wasted.

Higher level PCs should probably have good ways of gathering intelligence - scrying, high-ranked contacts, bardic knowledge, lots of ranks in gather information or knowledge (local history) and so on - and thus should have access enough information to know what they're getting into. Once they know the approximate difficulty level and possible rewards of each adventure option, let them choose - if they want a cakewalk with tiny rewards (in comparison to their level), so be it.

 

[Derro]

The problem was encounters way below the PCs' level. These were plain old boring, and the rewards weren't satisfying, either. When combat is as involved as 3e/4e generally are, this amounted to time my players and I felt was kind of wasted.

I placed low-level modules all around the area for the adventurers' to locate and/or hear about through rumors, along with high-level modules. All the while though I was thinking, "How fun will it be going through a 1st-level module for a few hundred odd GP and a +1 item or two?"

It's always easier to scale an encounter up than down.

I think in sandbox you have to decide how much of a vacuum there is regarding the encounters the party has and what is out there. If you are playing a game where a lot gets done every session then the occasional throwaway encounter isn't necessarily bad. Even if the XP is minimal and the treasure negligible you could still use the encounter to introduce a narrative element. Clues to other ongoing stories or hooks to other adventure sites are always welcome.

On the other hand if you want to scale the encounter up... well just scale it up. If you have the time twist it someway. Maybe the first party to try and clear the encounter had an evil cleric leading it. Now he's holed-up with a whack of bolstered undead (the previous encounters) and a henchman. Evil clerics are a dime a dozen.

If it's a random encounter it's acceptable to hand-wave. As long as PCs are allowed to run away so are monsters.


From Irda Ranger

Then the PCs can learn the pleasure of delegation, not to mention have a little fun drafting ads that they used to respond to when they were 1st level.

And thus the Adventurer's Guild is born. This would be so awesome if you had, like, 30 players and didn't have to go to work ever again.

 

[S'mon]

The problem was encounters way below the PCs' level. These were plain old boring, and the rewards weren't satisfying, either. When combat is as involved as 3e/4e generally are, this amounted to time my players and I felt was kind of wasted.

I placed low-level modules all around the area for the adventurers' to locate and/or hear about through rumors, along with high-level modules. All the while though I was thinking, "How fun will it be going through a 1st-level module for a few hundred odd GP and a +1 item or two?"

-O

1. Encounter way under EL - if the 9th level party meet goblins while travelling, I say "After three days and a skirmish with goblins, you reach..."
3e is good that way as it has a clear "no XP for 8 CR under Party Level" rule which lets the GM know when he can ignore encounters. If the party are 6th level you can ignore an encounter with 6 goblins too, if you wish. If your PCs are 12th level and facing thousands of orcs; run the battle, but when the orcs retreat don't run through every moment of orc-massacring in the pursuit, say "You kill a few dozen" - more if the PCs have a way to do so - and move on.

2. Low level module, high level PCs - give enough info let the players of the 9th level PCs decide whether they want to help Baron Nobody clear the Minor Hobgoblins out of his old fort - actually happened IMC. The PCs' response IMC: "Sounds like a job for low-level adventurers!"
Sometimes, players are sick of their high-level PCs getting stomped by uber-BBEGs, and just want to kick some goblin butt. Let them make the choice, and have fun showing how cool they are as they mow down the foe. Even give a little bit of XP if they've done something useful in protecting the realm etc. But there should always be other, higher-threat tasks available that they can take on if they prefer a real challenge.

 

[Fenes]

Sandbox to me has always meant lots of improvising, which I'm relatively good at. It also requires impecable record keeping, which I tend to lag at

You will need to keep pretty accurate notes, because even the encounters or plot points you may have pre-planned will require fleshing out in the midst of the moment... players will remember that one tidbit that you threw out and forgot to write down.

I agree with this. Fortunately, I write logs of all my games during play, then type the log up and file the info (location, NPCs, plots) in the appropriate documents.

Generally, I don't play sandbox style as leaving the Players to their own plans, I just usually offer lots of plots and hooks, and then let the players decide which of those they react to or get involved in, in case they don't have plans of their own.
I usually do have some general plot arc running though, like the current "recover the relics stolen from the temple", but the PCs are free to choose how to go after those, I simply present the locations, rumors and defenses if needed.

 

[Shades of Green]

I think that the old "name level" concept would be very useful for dealing with these under-level adventures: the higher-level PCs would send in their retainers to deal with such matters, while focusing themselves on greater threats. This has the added fun of outfitting retainers, managing stronghold and retainer resources, and dealing with politics.

So Sir Whacksalot (who is level 10) won't be going after the scattered goblins of Smallwood who are bothering the good citizens of Boringdale - his loyal knights would; his baronial highness himself would be on a quest to slay Slaughtermaw the Hungry, the local red dragon.